I differ from many in our blog community in my belief that the empires who ruled most of the world in the 1800s were the lessers among many alternative evils.  The British Empire (despised by so many of our writers and commenters) was one, and it did a better job of advancing and
maintaining civilisation and decency in Africa and Asia than its “national-self-determining” successors have done.  And the Turkish Empire was another, and its dissolution was another great loss for civilisation.

FJ Sarto, your point is a subtle one which might be lost on many, but I perceive what you mean when you suggest that a Turkish invasion of Kurdistan might be guided by the Hand of Providence after all.

Turkey should not be in the EU, or in NATO, for historical and perhaps even spiritual reasons (perhaps even including the reasoning of God, beyond our understanding.) But the Turks - after they were shown their boundaries in Europe in the 1680s - did a pretty fine job of governing the hornets’ nest of the Middle East, and as the Turks are one of the most civilised of the Muslim nations,
maybe they ought to reclaim their role as the imperial hegemonic power in the Middle East, like they did in the 1800s when Europe was at peace and Western civilisation/Christendom was in no peril at all.

I’m saying this as a professed Christian who has some noble Muslim friends in some non-Western countries, and as one who, although not a Muslim, has a lot of respect for Islam - but I would prefer to see Islam remain, for the most part, within its traditional geographical borders, as it was when the Turks ran things in the Middle East.

But then that would be the opposite of Wilsonianism, wouldn’t it.  So most of us here would be expected to agree - but then they might need to do some re-thinking about the comparative virtues of empires versus nationalities.  Hmmm…

I find it strange that you would want a secular republic
which harbors a moderate form of Islam to go under, while
leaving intact such bastions of extreme backward Islam
as Saudi Arabia.

No, Turkey is not all we would want of a Western nation,
but it is closer to Western Civilization than most of
its Muslim brethen, and could be an example to be followed.
To wish it ill is to cut off our nose to spite our faces.

Adriana’s comment corraborates the argument in mine, although, Adriana, I think you might have misunderstood FJ Sarto’s point.
I think FJ agrees with both you and me, that none of us want to see Turkey “go under”, and although I can’t speak for FJ, I THINK he would probably agree with me that a reconstruction of Turkish hegemony over the Middle East would be better for the entire world than the situation of today.

Actually I think FJ and Adriana and I are all of like mind about this, but please correct me if I’m wrong.

Incidentally (or perhaps more significantly than that), I have been a guest at a Sufi Mosque, most of whose (what shall I call them in English, “punters?” - that sounds better than “attenders") were Turks, including their Sufi Sheikh (meaning, their spiritual teacher.) That particular Sufi Mosque belonged to a Sufi Tekka ("group of apostolic disciples) who went back to the Sufi “saint” (I’m putting that in quotation marks to avoid challenges from overly picayune Christians among us) - as I was saying, that particular Mosque, and Tekka, were spiritual descendants of the Sufi “saint” and poet, Rumi, who wrote, inter alia, around 800 years ago:

“‘Tis light (which) makes colour visible:
at night!:
Red, green, and russet vanish from thy sight!
So to thee light by darkness is made known:
Since God hath none,
He, seeing all, denies
Himself eternally to mortal eyes.
From the dark jungle as a tiger bright;
From from the viewless,
Spirit leaps to light!”

And that poem, by Rumi, one of the greatest so-called “Muslims” (or was he really a Christian in his heart?) is something I THINK many or most Christians among us here, can agree upon.  Yeah?
That poem reminds me of one of my favourite lines by St Paul, “for now, we see through a glass darkly"…

...and the faith of my (yes, personal) Muslim friends, in God - and yes I DO mean in THE God - often seems to me, to be immensely more substantial and real, than the professions of faith of all too many American “Christians.”

Just a few weeks ago, I was a guest for a few weeks in Indonesia, in Java, hosted by some Javan Muslims to give a guest lecture at their university - mind you, I did so as a professed Christian, and this was made clear to my Muslim audience.  I actually found it STRANGELY (and I choose the word “strangely” with great care) - I found it STRANGELY reassuring, to hear the muezzin at the nearby Mosque singing, in the evening, “Al LAAAAH, hu akhbar!”

...strangely reassuring, because:

1.  “strange” because I am a Christian, and those Muslim songs are not QUITE identical with mine, so I am a “stranger to those songs, but also,

2.  “reassuring”, because the yearning in that muezzin’s voice, and his beautifully sung expression of longing for God, seemed, to my ears, to be closer to the kinds of songs Jesus and His apostles sang, than almost any American “Christian” songs sung today (among Protestants AND Catholics!) Thus, I felt reassured by evidence that SOME of the Children of Adam REALLY believe in God, as most Americans and Europeans no longer do.

Will that experience persuade me to convert to Islam?  No.  I remain a professed believer in the Gospel.  And as much as I love and admire my Sufi friends, I will not convert to Islam - and they respect me for maintaining my own faith and my own conscience, and THAT should tell you a lot about how SOME (or many?) Muslims are closer to Christ and the Holy Spirit than many so-called “Christians” are.

As a professed and confessed Christian, I will agree with MOST of TRUE Islam - their belief in, and passionate yearning for reunification with, THE God - but I will stop short of conversion to Islam, which would require me to renounce my faith in the Gospel of Christ.  BUT…

...but, I just want to point out, that there are many, MANY Muslims out there - perhaps especially among the Turks - who are, in spirit, MUCH closer allies of Christendom than the neocons.........

Salaam Aliukum,
Shalom,
Pax Vobiscum,
from a spiritual descendant of Abraham,
and thus a brother of all true Christians and Jews and, dare I say, all good Muslims too, like my Sufi friends and Rumi and Hafiz who sought God “through a glass darkly” in the way of Saint Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles..........

Dear Adriana,
I do not want to see Turkey go under. In fact, I hope it leans further towards Kemalist, military-imposed secularism-- which is precisely what an invasion of Kurdistan would encourage, if commentators are correct. But my MAIN concern (my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd priorities) is that Turkey not become the broken fence through which Islamic populations flood Europe. Accuse me of dual loyalty if you like, but I care as much about the home Continent as I do about the U.S. If Turkey falling out with the U.S. for a few years hampers our meddling in the Middle East… all the better for us AND the Middle East, come to think of it. Loving one’s country of birth (the “U.S. and A” as Borat would say) doesn’t mean one wishes it well in all its misguided and unjust ventures. An inward-looking, less democratic (and thus more secularist) Turkey that was kept out of the EU would probably help create a healthier, multipolar situation in the Levant. Israel would be encouraged to make a reasonable arrangement with her neighbors--instead of following the siren song of Likudniks safely inhabiting the Upper West Side and Arlington, VA. It would be beneficial to all involved--except the poor Kurds, whose situation should evoke our sympathy. That’s the ONLY reason to be ambivalent here.

“Given the already troubling difference between Islamic and Christian birthrates, the churches of Rome, Paris, Vienna, Dublin, and Warsaw would sooner or later end up mostly as mosques.”
You mean:
Given the already troubling difference between Islamic and non-Islamic birthrates, the churches of Rome, Paris, Vienna, Dublin, and Warsaw would sooner or later end up mostly as mosques.
It is the atheists who lower the average non-Islamic birthrate.

Let’s connect some dots here…

Turkey’s EU membership is something nobody in Europe wishes for. Not the peoples of Europe and not our crooked politicians, except our own versions of the neocons, like Sweden’s Carl Bildt.

France’s Sarkozy has openly declared that he will not endorse Turkey’s membership. It is also very doubtful that Greece is looking forward to a Turkish membership, in any form.

For Turkey to become a member the vote must be “all for”.

The Turkish people themselves aren’t too keen on joining either. For the sake of the country’s economy it would probably be a good thing, but Switzerland and Norway have proven that you can eat your EU cake and keep it too. These two countries aren’t in, but get almost all the advantages of membership. They don’t get handouts, but they also don’t need them. Turkey’s economic situation is however quite different from these two very wealthy nations.

The Turks don’t consider themselves to be Europeans in any sense of the word. Neither do the various nations of Europe consider them as “one of us”.

So who is pushing for Turkey’s membership and why? The who is the USA and the why is to psychologically prepare Europe for an Israeli membership in the EU. Israel is already a member in the European Football (soccer) Federation, the European Song Contest, the European ... you fill in the dots.

The ruling caste in Turkey is a group of people called the Dönmeh. These Dönmeh used to be Jews who converted to Islam, but secretly kept their Jewish traditions and religion, just like the Jews in Spain once did. It is perhaps easier to understand the Turkish ruling class affinity towards Israel and its dislike of “religion”. The disliked religion in question is of course Islam, the religion of the common folks in Turkey.

This also explains USA’s very favorable attitude towards Turkey. Jewish interests in the USA are pushing for their ruling Jewish cousins in Turkey, the Dönmeh, who are loyal to their Jewish cousins in Israel.

The war in Iraq has rolled a golden apple into the equation. Israel has both politically, economically and militarily (by training) supported the Kurds from day one. The Kurds sit on a lot of oil and a pipeline of that oil into Israel is one of the objectives of Israel’s outstreched hand to the Kurds.

An awkward situation for the Turks, who are afraid of a Great Kurdistan, taking parts of Turkey from them. The Turks simply have to attack the Kurdish held part of Iraq before the Kurds get too powerful. The immediate reason given is that Kurdish guerilla groups have attacked targets in Turkey and then hidden in Iraq across the border. All true, but there’s another, more pressing reason. If the ruling class doesn’t, they’ll rule no more. Membership in the EU is worthless if you lose the power and privileges that you’ve grown accustomed to for so long.

Personally I think that Turkey shouldn’t seek a membership in the EU, and if it does, that it should be denied one. However, as someone here said, the Turks are probably the most civilized Muslims of them all and could prove a valuable ally to the West. Which doesn’t mean we must open our doors wide to the 70-80 million of them.

A war with the Kurds could end in any one of many ways, but I wouldn’t bet on the Turks, despite a tough army and great military resources. The Kurds have for the first time in several thousands years gotten something that resembles their own state and I suspect they will do anything to keep it. It’s now or never. With Israel supporting them we don’t need to wonder too much who the Americans will support in that conflict.

I think it would be well for all to heed that natural Christian instinct to pray for peace instead of becoming junior league Machiavellians.  War is not only a catastrophe for the innocent, but is very unpredictable.  As to what kind of Turkey I would like to see - that would be a Christian Turkey, not a Kemalist Turkey with military imposed secularism.  I don’t think that Our Lord wanted the Turks excluded from salvation.

Please, instead of ‘liberty’ say ‘freedom.’

Regardless, even of historical origin, they have subtly different meanings.

If we owned our own media John Zmirak would NOT be a millionaire-celebrity pundit (such category wouldn’t exist), he would merely be a well-paid journalist whose articles were carried throughout the U.S. and afforded respect by major politicians.

As for the Muslim birthrates in Europe, I expect them
to go down, driven by the same economic pressures.

No matter what their ideology, the aparments that they
can get will not get any larger, the need for a long
education to aspire to the better jobs will no disappear
the rules and opportunities for social ascent will not
be modified.

I expect them to be much more Europeanized in the next
generation.

@F. J. Sarto

Indeed, it seems that I misread your article. We seem
to be in agreement on many things. But still, wishing
for a war is inviting trouble. I have seen too many
Three Stooges movies to know that no matter what endeavor
easy at is seems, can descend into chaos and mayhem
before we know it.