Based on your insights expressed here, I assume that we’d agree that the neocon support of Israel is a classic case of “with friends like these...” Most Israelis with whom I’ve jaw-jawed wouldn’t even be able to define “neoconservative.” Surely the Iraq War, in raising the temperature of the Middle East by 1000 degrees, has not been good for Israel.

The PLO and Hamas would also do well to avoid any contacts with far-rightist anti-Semites for the same reason that Israelis should cease contact with the neocons.  “With friends like these...” Why defenders of fascism would truly love the Palestinians in any sincere way is beyond me.

Israel can do whatever they want.  I have no problem with their behaviour, I have a problem with our country being connected to it.  Israel has a security wall and a massive subsidized security force.  They are more or less safe.  We, on the other hand, have two massive largely unguarded and a religiously / ethniclly divere population.  We are sitting ducks for terrorists, Israel is well protected.  Why do you think 9/11 happened here and not tel aviv? 

I happen to be opposed to the state of israel, but I woukld not go join the PLO or Hamas.  If the US were to stop giving aid to and backing israel that would be enuogh to satisfy me.  Until then, i have no problem criticizing israel and will continue to.

that shuld be “massive unguarded borders”

“In short, my impression of this country does not coincide with the unsympathetic depiction conveyed by Foy’s description. I suspect that what he has done, and this is a tendency I’ve observed in many paleocons, is to project his justified loathing of AIPAC and the neocon crowd onto Israel’s present inhabitants.”

The likable and courageous Paul Gottfried, who is to be commended for his contrarianism with regard to the Israel lobby in America, nonetheless suffers from a characteristic endemic among American Jewish Zionists: namely, the impulse to justify, rationalize and apologize for the state of Israel and its actions.

Does Gottfried do this because Israel is a true American ally, or because it is objectively more virtuous than its surrounding Arab states? Anyone who knows the history of double dealing and backstabbing carried out by the Israelis against America knows the former isn’t true; and anybody who knows the history of Israel’s murderous, totalitarian treatment of the Palestinians knows the latter might be nominally true, but only to a slight degree.

No, the real reason that Gottfried defends Israel is the same reason that all Jewish-American Zionists defend Israel: they are all part of the same tribe.

So who does Gottfried side with when Israel’s interests conflict with America’s? Doesn’t his critique of Patrick Foy’s America-first perspective article provide the answer?

Jewish-American Zionists who jet-set back and fourth between Israel and America should NEVER be listened to on the question of American-Israel policy. They simply can’t be trusted.

Ed,

To be critical of Israel does not per se
make one an anti-Semite, right?

By the same token, neither does respect for Israel
and the Israeli people make one a neocon. 

I.e., I very much admire Malta; that doesn’t mean I
want to sabotage American foreign policy & raid the
public coffers for foreign aid funds so as to help
the Maltese establish hegemony over the Med.

Of course Mr. Havers’ point is quite valid too.  Those
who truly wish the best for either America OR Israel
in the long term should be the most strident critics
of neocon antics in the Middle East.

Dr. Gottfried,

Well said.  I’d suggest that “to demonize the Israeli
state and its inhabitants as singularly evil” is
another example of the human weakness of trying to
oversimplify existence.

Gottfried:  “[tendency] to project his justified loathing of AIPAC and the neocon crowd onto Israel’s present inhabitants. This is not a good habit.”

Fair enough.  I, for one, have nothing for or against Israel, except in so far as it involves the West and, in particular, the United States.  We should be neutral towards Israel.  You are correct; the real enemies are the neocon / AIPAC crowd.  And other than a few libertarian apologists, I don’t think that most paleos deny the Muslim threat, but rather think it is an immigration problem (not a Wilsonian-transforming-the-Middle-East-to-democracy problem).  I, for one, do not deny the threat, and support the deportation of at least some Muslims from Western countries.

Gottfried:  “many of Israel’s American Jewish backers predictably practice a double standard. They are universalists and even multiculturalists in Western Christian countries, but then are ethnic nationalists in the case of Israel.”

This is my biggest complaint.  They support propositionalism for the United States and Europe, but practice traditional blood-and-soil patriotism in Israel.  They want to create a Muslim state in Europe, but send Christians to die in the Middle East.  Trotskyites like Bill Kristol think the U.S. should spend billions to defend (directly or indirectly) the borders of Israel and Iraq, but simultaneously support the open-borders, Third-World invasion of the West. 

I do not begrudge the Jews for their ethnic loyalties.  I fact, I say more power to them.  I only wish the same were permitted for Anglo/European Christians.

G.S. wrote:
“By the same token, neither does respect for Israel and the Israeli people make one a neocon.”
No, but it often makes one a Zionist, be it Jewish Zionist, Christian Zionist, Judeophile Zionist or otherwise.
“I very much admire Malta; that doesn’t mean I want to sabotage American foreign policy & raid the public coffers for foreign aid funds so as to help the Maltese establish hegemony over the Med.”
Yet that is exactly what Zionists have done to America on behalf of Israel.
Look, if you, Gottfried and other Zionists “respect” Israel so much, then open up your pocket books and YOU support them. Don’t force other Americans who don’t respect Israel so much to subsidize your fetish.
Gottfried claims to want to get Israel off of the American tit, but then he goes about reinforcing the false myths (Israel is a democracy, Israel is vulnerable, Israel is our like-minded ally) used to justify Israel’s continued suckling at the American tit.
I would like to see every Zionist sent a bill for all of the billions they procured from American taxpayers for Israel over the years, and a bill for reparations to be paid to the families of every US soldier killed in the Iraq war, which is being fought largely on Israel’s behalf.
G.S., get ready to open your pocket book.

http://www.libertariantoday.com/

Cripes, Raimondo complimenting Jonah Goldberg and now Gottfried softening on our handlers in the Levant and their cozy little chop shop of enforced patriotism called AIPAC.

All this good will is getting to me....I’m almost ready to say something nice about the Mormons.

Never Mind.

I suppose it’s not allowed to have sympathy and respect for individual Israelis and Palestinians but utter disdain for the Cold War induced farrago that is Post Peak Oil Realpolitik.

Excellent article Dr. Gottfried.  I have often said that Isreal does not benefit so much from American internationalism as much as we are led to believe.  It appears to me then that you are in perfect agreement with Ron Paul when he says that by giving money to Israel with strings attached we are in effect robbing them of their sovereignty.  He has said that if the Israeli’s want peace then they will make peace.  My question is why does the stae of Israel have to be either Jewish or Arab.  Why can’t it be both?  The pathetic little area that they are attempting to make into two states would much more naturally be one.  An arrangement of compensation could be agreed on for those who lost their homes and the extremists would soon find themselves with little recruiting material.

Bede wrote of Israel’s Jewish American backers pushing multiculturalism in the West:

“This is my biggest complaint.  They support propositionalism for the United States and Europe, but practice traditional blood-and-soil patriotism in Israel.  They want to create a Muslim state in Europe, but send Christians to die in the Middle East...”

And why do you suppose they are such hypocrites with such extreme double standards? Let me offer one possible explanation: they despise Euro-Christians, blame them for the Holocaust, and are actively working to attack and undermine their group cohesiveness. They probably actually enjoy seeing American soldiers killed in Iraq, and enjoy seeing America in such political, social and economic turmoil.

The history of the Soviet Union and its government’s mass murder of mostly Christian dissidents—a government largely run by Jewish Communists in partnership with Stalinists (the precursors to today’s Neocons)—demonstrates the deep well of hatred that Jewish ideologues harbor for Christians in general and Euro-Christians in particular. The irony is, there never would have been a Holocaust but Judeofascists and Stalinists unleashing the dogs of totalitarianism and state mass murder on humanity.

Judeofascist have always been a scourge unto their host societies, and always will be. Turmoil inevitably follows in their wake. Deport them to Israel, which where their primary loyalties lie, anyway. Anything less is a passive aggressive attack on Christianity, the West, and, given Neocon proclivities, the entire civilized world. The Iraq war is only the beginning of their diabolical plans.

http://www.libertariantoday.com/

The Israeli-Palestintian problem is insoluble.
As long as Israel declares itself to be a
“Jewish” state there will never be peace.
The only solution is to drop the apartied
politics and re-create or re-declare the
state of Palestine and give all residents
equal representation.
Any 2 state solution will never bring peace.

Israel is a political machination that has
failed. Time to give it up.
I suggest we have the U.N. declare Antarctica
the new Jewish state and start over.

PG, *why* do you defend Israel?

Would you defend a state took control of a Jewish majority territory and then sought to expel the Jews and offered inferior civil rights to Jews which remained?

Would you defend Ahmedinajad if he did what your tribe are accusing him of intending?

I would like to thank Mr. Gottfired for injecting a semblance of balance and reason in responding to Foy’s pience, an article that could otherwise have been written by the neo-marxist Fritz Fannon.

I should like to comment on some of the comments.

Mr. Havers,
Considering the Nazis had deep ties to both the Muslim Brotherhood and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, why wouldn’t their successors do the same?

Lester,
Israel has suffered over 1200 dead in terrorist attacks since 2000. That is proportional to almost 80,000 Americans. (I’m not talking about value of a life, rather in terms of population size.)

Ed,
1. The logic of your screed dictates that no Jew has the right to defend Israel.
2. Where has Professor Gottfried attacked the US?

Defining American Patriotism as hatred of Israel is not logical.

3. Neither Gulf War was fought for Israel. Israel has not benefited from the fall of Saddam Hussein except that a small source of funding for terrorists has been stopped. On the other hand, Islamist Iran is much stronger now and its nuclear and missile programs continue.

Your unwillingness to consider Arab or individual Arab-Stae interests negates any rational argument.

Finally, the USSR discriminated against Jews from day one. Communists were inherent anti-Judaists since the fallen Lutheran Karl Marx called for the end of Judaism and Jewishness in “One the Jewish Question”.

In the USSR the practice of Judaism was all but banned and Zionism was a crime.
Stalin hated Jews and died just before he could carry out his own mass murder of Jews. Look up the “Doctor’s Plot”.

The USSR funded Arab wars against Israel, was behind the 1967 war, threatened to invade Israel, and funded and trained the PLO and other terrorist groups.

But, please do scream about Zionist Salinist communist Jews. It makes it so much easier to prove you wrong in but a sentence.
---------------
WillB,

The UN recognized the Third Israeli commonwealth, but tried to take land from it from day 1.
The land of israel being that of the people of Israel has nothing to do with the UN. Please pick up a Bible.

---,
Most Arab staes took over Jewish areas and expelled Jews. Waht’s your point?
Should one call the Islamo-Arab polities illegitimate due to the sack of Yathrib/Medina and Chabar?

At any rate, assuming that Israel were to expell ALL the Arabs from the disputed territories, then there would stil be a sovereign Arab state on 3/4 of Palestine. It is called Jordan. Of course, that is assuming that the “Palestinians” are some organic people, as opposed to just another group of Arabs, largely indistinguishable from Egyptians and Syrians.

Spot on as usual, Paul. Your most key point was “many of Israel’s American Jewish backers predictably practice a double standard. They are universalists and even multiculturalists in Western Christian countries, but then are ethnic nationalists in the case of Israel.”

This is precisely what infuriates real conservatives like me who otherwise treasure philo-Semitic feelings. I can respect (even though on many issues I disagree with) men like David Horowitz, who advocate tough borders and cultural self-defense for BOTH Israel and the rest of the West (the U.S. and America). Likewise, I can respect the consistency of leftists like Noam Chomsky--and radical libertarians--who oppose all such measures for any nation. (They nuts, but at least they’re being fair.)

What rankles is the special pleading of American multiculturalists and necons who HAPPEN to see Israel as the ONLY country with the right to preserve its identity and borders. Men like Allen Dershowitz, Joe Lieberman, Rahm Emanuel… the list goes on and on.  It reminds me of a particular type of crackpot Irish-American who sends money to the criminal street gang called the IRA, having fled to the suburbs to get away from crime.

I certainly agree with the substance of what Professor Gottfried writes.  Modern nation states, like the kingdoms which came before them, are mostly created by war and conquest and maintained by oppression.  Israel is hardly unique in that respect.

However, the blank check given Israel by the US enables it to act in a maximalist manner which is not good for the future of Israel or of its neighbors.  Without the 800 pound US gorilla tipping the scales, a lot of the rest of the countries of the world would have more reason to make just peace with their neighbors.  The US should end all foreign aid and all arms sales to Israel or any other country.

Mr. Zmirak,

While hypocracy is certainly annoying, ?I would not dismiss those who make unprincipled exceptions for a particular country other than the US. This is normally reflexive and unconscious minority behavior. Tjose who are openly hypocritical acting out of resentment or victim politics are genreally lost causes. However, the reflexive desire to protect ones own tribe even while being outwardly universalist is a good thing.

If nurtured as rational nationalism it can be used to force the hypocrits into seeing their hypocrisies in terms of the validity of nationalism. On the other hand, when handled imrpoerly, espcially by an outsider, the reaction is to close ranks and decry the outsider as racist.

If you want to get anywhere, push them to openly vindicate Zionism as nationalism. Once they do so, ask them if other nationalisms or tribalisms are legitimate.

I do this fairly often with other Jews. While this is rarely sucessful among the most liberal ones, I find that many have simply never though about nationalism in a serious manner. They have been propogandized not to do so.

The problem with the Judeofascists and their sympathizers is that they just don’t get it. There is only one belief system that can reconcile all the races, and it is not Judaism...it is not secular liberalism...it is Christianity. Deny it at your peril, and at the expense of your children.

Ed writes:
“The problem with the Judeofascists and their sympathizers is that they just don’t get it. There is only one belief system that can reconcile all the races, and it is not Judaism...it is not secular liberalism...it is Christianity. Deny it at your peril, and at the expense of your children.”

Lets all convert to a single messianic belief that supercedes Judaism and we will find peace. I’ve hread this line before. Karl Marx said the same thing.

“Once society has succeeded in abolishing the empirical essence of Judaism – huckstering and its preconditions – the Jew will have become impossible, because his consciousness no longer has an object, because the subjective basis of Judaism, practical need, has been humanized, nd because the conflict between man’s individual-sensuous existence and his species-existence has been abolished.

The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism.”

“The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism”

Given that Bush, Cheney and their Jewish Zionist collaborators are responsiple for the murder of millions of Iraqis and thousands of Americans, I would say that the emancipation from Zionism is the emancipation of the American patriot. Judeofascists are slaves to their father, Satan. They are of their father, Satan. Those who collaborate with them under the guise of enlightenment and modernity are but dupes, fools and collaborators. The West will survive; Judeofascists and their collaborators will not. Which side are you on?

What?  Now some commenters are implying that Gottfried is some kind of apologist
for AIPAC?  Get real.  The day that happens will be the day I join the IRA, invite David Irving to be a guest lecturer on the Holocaust, and become a teetotaler.
When flying pigs pilot the Space Shuttle.

Excellent post, Mr. Gottfried.  You’re still one of the few Western commentators who’s “getting Israel right”.  In particular, your diagnosis of paleo opposition to Israel is correct, I think.  I appeal to all paleos to try not to let their attitude towards Israel itself be influenced either by their attitude towards Israel’s sleazy defenders in the US or by their attitude towards US foreign aid to Israel.

The question of Israel splits the paleo camp in two. The majority of paleos who support the Arabs against Israel want the US to stop meddling in Middle East conflicts and look after its own interests.  The minority of paleos who support Israel against the Arabs want the US to stop meddling in Middle East conflicts and look after its own interests.  Is there any room for agreement between these two groups of paleoconservatives?  Alas, I fear the gap may be unbridgeable.

My only quibble with Prof. Gottfried’s article is that he didn’t mention the incredible beauty of Israeli women, especially the dark Sabra types.  By the way, there’s considerable evidence that the Dark Lady of Shakespeare’s sonnets was a Jewess, probably Italian.

“I do not begrudge the Jews for their ethnic loyalties.  In fact, I say more power to them.  I only wish the same were permitted for Anglo/European Christians.”

Amen!

It would appear that facts do not support the distinction being made between AIPAC, the neocons and Israeli government actions.
Israeli policy on Syria, the attack on Lebanon, and the current braying for potentially nuclear war on Iran by the Olmert Govt. are all proof that Israel’s govt and the neocons are joined at the hip.
The key neocon position papers: “A Clean Break” and “The project for a new American Century” were crafted in close ccordination with the Israeli Government and provided the guidelelines for the fifth columns talking points in the U.S. as Israel set about practising aparthied in the Occupied lands.
The use of cluster Bombs against civilians in Lebanon proves that the Israeli state is as barbaric as any in history.
Since the Israeli public “elected” these monsters it is complicit in their crimes against humanity.
Israel is the dying expression of a failed colonial experiment dreamt up in by dead imperialists like Balfour and the elders of Zion.
The vast majority of Jews disown the Zionist conspiracy.
It is a historic injustice to real jews to deceive the world by claiming Israel “represents” the jews.
Today Israel may attract Neo Nazi Russians to migrate their for U.S financed dole, but the major trend is that more are leaving than staying.
As far as the Propaganda that Israel represents “democracy”, even saddam never dreamt of putting up a 24 ft wall to imprison the jews in Iraq after stealing their lands and killing their children.
I am sure their were plenty of nice policemen helping old ladies across the street in Berlin under the Nazis too.
Their can be no 2 state solution in that miserable land, Israel is a failed state, a patient on a heart lung machine like its premier Sharon, the genocidal war criminal, it will implode soon with or without U.S. $$$$$’s.

ron lewenberg- my point wasn’t that there were no terrorist attacks in israel.  my point is that israel’s daily routine involves protectiosn against terrorism and ours does not because our immediate neighbors don’t hate us enough to engage in perpetual war. 

as for neither gulf war being fought for Israel, suffucet to say there exists mountains of evidence to the contrary.  to the extent that you denying it is an obvious insult to our intelligence.

Allen wrote,

Their can be no 2 state solution in that miserable land, Israel is a failed state, a patient on a heart lung machine like its premier Sharon, the genocidal war criminal, it will implode soon with or without U.S. $$$$$’s.

I couldn’t have said it better.  I also see the state of Israel as a patient.  One where we keep trying the same cure, a two state solution.  The obvious thing to do is try a one state solution.  Why?  Because the patient is dying and it is time to say ‘maybe it’s time we try something different.’

What I don’t understand is why humanitarian aid has been denied the Palestinians.  Why can’t we take a portion of that 30 billion that we, the American taxpayers, send to Israel each year and use it to improve the lives of the Palestinians? 
If we were to show the least bit of compassion for these people I would not only support money going to Israel m, I would send some myself.

Mr Nucci said:

“If we were to show the least bit of compassion for these people I would not only support money going to Israel m, I would send some myself.”

I respect your good intentions, here are some recent examples of Israeli compassion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKQqItZu4Is
There are a lot more where these came from.
There is only one cure for the Judeofascist imports from Russia, Germany and eastern europe and Broklyn.
Send them back, while we still can!

“Since the Israeli public “elected” these monsters it is complicit in their crimes against humanity.” - Allen

You could say the same thing about the American public and the monsters they elect and I’m not just referring to the current ones.  Not to mention that the Israeli monsters would be not nearly so monstrous if they were not being enabled by the American monsters.

PAUL GOTTFRIED FAILS TO MENTION THAT ISRAELI LEADERS
LIKE FORMER PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU REPEATEDLY
ADVOCATE THAT THE UNITED STATES BOMB IRAN AS HE HAD
DONE WITH RESPECT TO IRAQ.  IT IS NOT ONLY THE NEOCONS
WHO WANT THIS COUNRTY TO GO TO WAR AGAINST ISRAEL’S
ENEMIES.

I would take it even further, in (partial) defense of the “lobby”. Blaming AIPAC for successfully exploiting the weaknesses of our corrupt political system is like blaming Pat Robertson when your Aunt cleans out her bank account and mortgages the house to send everything to the 700 club. The problem is “us”.

Whenever you find yourself in disagreement with Gottfried, chances are, you need to reexamine your own assumptions, especially if you’ve never actually been to the ME.  I suspect that Israel is demographically doomed, but it’s not our problem.

For those arguing that the Iraq war was not conducted on behalf of Israel, or who wish to make a distinction between the “neocons” and the Israel Government progra, or who believe that the next war being hatched against Iran is anything other than an instruction from Tel Aviv, or who are deluded enough to believe the U.S. is anything more than an Israeli colony, a quick read here would help dispel the influence of the evil vapors being spread by the neocon controlled media:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break
and here is more proof:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

Its a bit late to argue that the neocon fifth column does anything other than further the two Israeli manifestoes cited above.
It is a bit late to assert that the town whore called Israel is still a virgin, or that the U.S government is run by anything other than willing Jackasses.

@Ron Lewenberg

“The land of israel being that of the people
of Israel has nothing to do with the UN.
Please pick up a Bible.”

And just where can we find these Israelis of
the Bible? Surely NOT in Israel.
As for the USSR, Judaism was the ONLY protected
religion following the Bolshevik takeover.
Guess why?
As for U.S. aid; where do you think all that
money goes? How ‘bout AIPAC? We Americans are
being boiled alive in our own mother’s milk.
If you read your OWN Bible you’ll discover this
is an abomination.
Israel would not exist except for the theft of
property from hard working American families.
I don’t get all this hub-bub about Israel. It
is just one shitty little country and not worth
any sacrifice on my part.
Yes, I’m an evangelical Christian but I’m not
buying into all this diaspora crap. The Khazarian
Jew has never had ANY claim to Palestine and
ANYONE who honors the Talmud is NOT a Jew in my book.

Ed writes
“Given that Bush, Cheney and their Jewish Zionist collaborators are responsiple for the murder of millions of Iraqis and thousands of Americans, I would say that the emancipation from Zionism is the emancipation of the American patriot.”

In so far as President Bush, like virtually every american politician supports the existence of the Third Israeli Commonwealth, i suppose taht he is a Zionist. However, he has been spending the last few weeks trying to destroy Israel. Aside from giving up territory and cleansing it of Jews, he wants Israel to accept “Palestinian refugees”, thus undermining the continued existence of Israel.

Bush and neocons use Israel, they they aren’t friends of it and more than they are of the US.

“Which side are you on?”
I’m on the side of Western states against Islamist ones.
I’m on the side opposing the UN, Communists, and Trans-national Socialist drive to destroy Israel and the US.
What side are you on?

“It would appear that facts do not support the distinction being made between AIPAC, the neocons and Israeli government actions. “
In so far as these are liberals mascerading as nationalists and are for the slow destruction of Israel as opposed to the immediate destruction, I agree.

“sraeli policy on Syria, the attack on Lebanon, and the current braying for potentially nuclear war on Iran by the Olmert Govt. are all proof that Israel’s govt and the neocons are joined at the hip.”

How dare those damn Israelis retaliate against terrorism and an invasion of Israel proper by terrorists. Don’t they know their place in a ghetto or paying the jizya?

As for Iran, I’d like a toke of what your smoking because no one wants to nuke Iran. The idea is to prevent a nuclear Iran, one which would bomb the Us and Israel, resulting in annihilation of the poor Iranians suffering under the Islamist rulers.

“The key neocon position papers: “A Clean Break” and “The project for a new American Century” were crafted in close ccordination with the Israeli Government and provided the guidelelines for the fifth columns talking points in the U.S. as Israel set about practising aparthied in the Occupied lands. “

These same neocons are having Israel destroyed piecemeal and setting up “democracies” that are Islamist in nature. They are no more zionist than President Bush is a Conservative.

“The use of cluster Bombs against civilians in Lebanon proves that the Israeli state is as barbaric as any in history. “
Actually, they were used in rare instances against specific targets used by Hizbullah. That is a far cry from American carpetbombing in WW2 and Vietnam. You must really hate America.

“Since the Israeli public “elected” these monsters it is complicit in their crimes against humanity. “
Ha ha. If Israel wanted to, It could have levelled all of Lebanon, instead of trying to limit casualties.

“Israel is the dying expression of a failed colonial experiment dreamt up in by dead imperialists like Balfour and the elders of Zion. “
Elders of Zion?
Why am i not surprised that you would consider Czarist Agitprop based on a satire of French politics to be true.

“The vast majority of Jews disown the Zionist conspiracy.
It is a historic injustice to real jews to deceive the world by claiming Israel “represents” the jews. “
Israel doesn’t represent most Jews. Only the 5.1 million in Israel.

“Today Israel may attract Neo Nazi Russians to migrate their for U.S financed dole, but the major trend is that more are leaving than staying. “

I agree that Israel should do a better job of screening immigrants. Use of Jewish law instead of the 1/4 rule would be a start. However, your kind would be screaming if Israel did that.
As of people with limited Jewishness returning home or even former exiles going back, what’s your point? I consider it a good thing.

“As far as the Propaganda that Israel represents “democracy”, even saddam never dreamt of putting up a 24 ft wall to imprison the jews in Iraq after stealing their lands and killing their children. “

No, his predecessors merely expelled most. The remainder was subject to arrest for practicing Judaism. Any Iraqi Jew was also subject ot arrest and torture for the crime of Zionism.

You really should work on coherent arguements, not projection.

“Their can be no 2 state solution in that miserable land, Israel is a failed state, a patient on a heart lung machine like its premier Sharon, the genocidal war criminal, it will implode soon with or without U.S. $$$$$’s.”

You wouldn’t know a war criminal if he ran over you.

----------------------

Lester,

The first Gulf War was about OIL. We wanted to protect the other Gulf States from being conquered by the Pan-Arab National Socialist regime of Saddam Hussein.

Israel did benefit, but it also cost Israel. The price of Syrian support was the US pressuring ISrael to allow Syria to turn 3/4 of L:ebanon into a puppet state and increased pressure on Israel to leave Southern Lebanon, selling out Lebanese Christians.
In order to placate the “arab street” into not falling for the propoganda you fell for, Israel was not allowed to retaliate when attacked and the entire Oslo Suicide process began with the Madrid Talks. When faced with Israeli recalcitrance, Bush helped rig the Israeli elections to ensure a Socialist/Labor victory.
This was overseen by James “Fuch the Jews” Baker III, who is no a paid lobbyist fo Saudi Arabia, as opposed to his former gig as an unpaid prostitute.

Nucci
“I couldn’t have said it better.  I also see the state of Israel as a patient.  One where we keep trying the same cure, a two state solution.  The obvious thing to do is try a one state solution.  Why?  Because the patient is dying and it is time to say ‘maybe it’s time we try something different.’”

That is called killing Israel and leaving all the Jews there to either dy, or be dhimmi and then be forced out.

Now the US does not give Israel anywhere near 30 Billion per year. Stop repeat counting 50-times over.

We do give direct aid to the Palestinians and indirect aid through contributiosn to UNRWA

WillB writes:

And just where can we find these Israelis of
the Bible? Surely NOT in Israel.
.....
Yes, I’m an evangelical Christian but I’m not
buying into all this diaspora crap. The Khazarian
Jew has never had ANY claim to Palestine and
ANYONE who honors the Talmud is NOT a Jew in my book.”

It really doesn’t take long for your kind to prove their ignorance.
The term, which as I will show later is wrong, you are thinking of is “Khazar” not “Khazarian”. A Khazarian would be any subject the Khazar Khaganate, whereas Khazars were the central and dominant tribe. (Although not actually the ruling tribe, since their royalty can from the Ashina/Asina clan of the older Gokturk Khaganate, but that is another point entirely)
To put this in perspective, a few clans of Bulghars, who where actually former kin of the Khazars, invaded what is now Bulgaria in the Balkans. The Bulgarians were a mixture of Slavs, Greeks, and Albanians under the rule of the Bulghars. Relatively quickly, the Bulghars assimilated into a new joint culture, much like the Normans in England.
The only Bulghars left are the Volga Bulghars of Chuvashia.
And that brings me to a larger point, there are no Khazars today. The Khaganate was destroyed in 967 by the Rus and Pechenegs, and the remaining independent areas were conquered in 1016.
No one claims to be Khazars except for some Hungarian Jews (mostly prior to ww2) and the Karaylar, or Tatar Karaites, who speak a dialect from the wrong family of Turkic languages. They speak a Kipchak dialect indistinguishable from Crimean tatars, not an Oghuric Dialect like that of the Khazars and Bulghars.
Of course the language issue is debatable, since no one has spoken Khazar Turkish for 800 years!

Your claim that all Israeli Jws are Khazars is not just ignorant, but stupid. If you cited the proper propoganda, the claim is that 90% of Ashkenazi Jews, such as Mr. Gottfried and myself are Khazars.
Only 60% of Israeli Jews are Ashkenazi. The rest are mostly Sephardic and Mizrahi (Middle Eastarn and North African). So iff, the claim of the Hungarian Communist Koestler were true, and they are not, only 54% of Israeli Jews are of Khazar descent. That leaves roughly 2.5 million who are not.

However, genetic testing indicates that as a hole, Ashkenazi Jews have little Khazar influence. The Hapalotyping indicates a preponderance of Y-DNA haplogroups J and E, which is the same as Sephardic Jews.If you map Hapalotypes, Eastern European are closes to other Jews, then Kurds and Levantine Arabs, Samaritans (yep ~720 Samaritans still exist).
The minority non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European). That indicates some some Turkic (probably Khazar) and Ruthenian influence.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html
But most Jews are as Khazar as the royal family of Britain is Ashina/Asena and Khazar. (The House of Hanover, like much of European royalty is descended from the Byzantine Emperor Leo IV “the Khazar”. Leo IV’s father Constantine V married Irene (born Tzizhak/çiçek), the daughter of the Khazar Khagan Bihar. (Birah was the Khazar Khagan during the Third Khazar Arab war.)

And before you call this some Jewish conspiracy, I would note there is no evidence that the Khazar princess later baptized Irene, was Jewish. She was a follower of Tengri Shamanism.)

“As for the USSR, Judaism was the ONLY protected religion following the Bolshevik takeover.
Guess why? “

Because you make up factoids, or regurgitate lies from other sources.
Strictly speaking all religions were equally protected and persecuted under the Bolsheviks. Now Judaism was essentially criminalized under Stalin, and Rabbis and secret practitioners were persecuted under the charge of Zionism and anti-revolutionary activities.

“As for U.S. aid; where do you think all that money goes? How ‘bout AIPAC? ... Israel would not exist except for the theft of property from hard working American families. “
3 Billion yearly is about 2.5% of Israeli GDP. What’s you point?

Are you also angry with US aid to Arab nations and to the PLO?

“I don’t get all this hub-bub about Israel. It is just one shitty little country and not worth any sacrifice on my part. “
You hatred of it suggest an emotional attachment on your part.

“ANYONE who honors the Talmud is NOT a Jew in my book.”
So, that leaves liberal Judaism (Conservative/Masorti, Reform, and Reconstructionist Jews) and Karaites (literalists and self-proclaimed Saducees). Your hatred is only towards Orthodox Rabbinate Jews?

Or are you simply so ignorant, that you don’t know divisions in Judaism and are just making stuff up?

Stick around, Mr. Lewenberg!  You have something to say that worth hearing.

“some of those who have been to the U.S. find living in this supposedly Nazi-like country at least as agreeable.”

I’m wondering if Dr. Gottfried might agree that a more just analogy for Israel would be the Apartheid government of South Africa?

Of course in the mainstream this is the sort of suggestion that would be greeted with enthusiasm by anti-Israelis and outraged fury by Zionists; I should hope it clear that I am not making a value judgment.

And if I were it would be directed in the direction opposite that of conventional wisdom—every self- righteous globalist gets off on the outcome of the End Apartheid crusade of the 80’s, without bothering to trouble themselves about the consequences to the white population of that country.

It does seem that the fate of the Boers is a good analogy for what many fear (or hope) await the Israelis, yes?

Ed,

Regarding my comments, You are doing the exact same thing that AIPAC does—reading into it sentiments which aren’t there.

Like most other paleoconservatives, I believe the US scale should roll back—if not cease entirely—all foreign aid, and all arms sales to Israel (and everybody else). 

And like most other paleos, I do not believe the US has an obligation to maintain a massive military presence in the Middle East.

I resemble a Zionist about as much as I resemble a duck-billed platypus.

My point was that the notion that one must either

A) Despise the Israelis as demonic and long for the destruction of their society,

or

B) Embrace Zionism

is a false dichotomy.

As to Dr. Gottfried’s remarks “reinforcing the false myths"… well, how would you know?

Have you ever *been* there?

I suggest a more reasonable analogy for Israel is that it neither resembles Nazi Germany nor Stalinist Russia, but rather Apartheid South Africa.

Which is neither a condemnation nor an endorsement, merely the observation that the Israelis face the same possible fate as that faced by the Boers.

It’s sort of ironic that Jimmy Carter presented his critique of Israeli policy in terms of “ending Apartheid”. 

If one accepts that analogy and then demands that the Israelis end Apartheid, then obviously one is asking them to accept their own self-destruction.

I will say this for the Israelis; at least, in the 1980’s, they were one of the few nations that didn’t jump on the bandwagon of self-righteous condemnation and demand of the Dutch South Africans that they shoot themselves in the head.

Unlike the US.

My two bits is that we Americans should mind our own damn business for a change.

ron- seriously this is the last place in the world that will listen to rhetoric like yours.  we know the score with israel, the us , and the palestinians.  we’re all steeped in Buchanan to the hilt and have taken abuse ver the years because of it.  againl don’t insult my intelligence with this war for oil bs

This report on what is really going on ACTUALLY happening as we speak by Paul Craig Roberts puts our discussion in its proper context:

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=12224

People like Ron only delude deceive and condemn themselves and their race to oblivion just like Hitler and Sharon and the not so smart proteges Bush and the judeofascist neocon run state of Israel.

Allow me to forestall any misunderstanding concerning what the US
owes to Israel because Israel behaves more decently than its
Muslim neighbors. Nowhere do I claim that we are supposed to give
the Israeli government our unconditional support, no matter what
or even that we should immediately double our foreign
aid (the proper figures for which are given by Ron Lewenberg),
to underline our solidarity with the virtuous Israelis. I was
only hoping to call attention to the extreme loathing for Israel
that I find among otherwise reasonable and politically
intelligent paleocons. I also understand the irritating feature
of non-Israeli Jews and of American Zionists fueling this
dislike but I think the practice of taking out one’s
frustration on the Israelis by demonizing them is not
particularly useful to anyone.

@Mr. Lewenberg

I concede that my knowledge of Jewish lineage
is very limited (since I have no interest.)
My generalization was sloppy, my apologies.
On the other hand however, to argue that
Jewishness is genetic only strengthens the
accusation that Judaism is a racist cult.

I would gladly pledge my life, fortune and
sacred honor to return Palestine to the Jews,
if only we could find them. There is only
one Jew I know of that is worthy to receive
it but He is preoccupied at the moment.

Mr Gotfried:

Israel’s Iraq policy implemented by the U.S. has caused:

1. I million Iraqi infant deaths
2. 700,000 killed since 2003
3. 4 million displaced
5. The whole country poisoned by depleted uranium.
6. The destruction of 2,000 years of christianity in Iraq.

Is it really possible to demonize the Israelis. Is their record on Iraq any better than the Nazis on a per capita basis.

I won’t even mention the Palestinians and the Lebanese, as I am sure you get my drift.

Lets put some perspective back here.

Mr. Gotfried you owe Mr Foy a sincere apology, if you are to have any further credibility.

Dr.Gottfried,
Point taken, but it is not asking too much
that Israel live up to the sacrifice being
made here in the U.S.
The time for haggling is over.
Secure the peace or call it quits.
Jerusalem is not worth another life.

willb- pledge what you like but the land doesn’t BELONG to anyone, besides the people who lived there before zionism

http://www.aldeilis.net/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=108&Itemid=114

and have existed there perpetually since creation

“Lets not demonize the Israelis”

ok

Lets analyse the news instead and ask a couple of hypotheticals.

We know that Israel wants the U.S. to Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran.

We know that a “filipino Monkey” tried to start something in the staraits of Hormuz last week.

If one were to speculate that the Filipino monkey was a mossad agent sitting in a high rise in Dubai would that be demonising Israel.

If an “incident” had been triggered and local Iranian small boat commanders had sunk one or 2 U.S. ships what kind of bombing would that trigger? If Iran was bombed and they retaliated by flattening Tel Aviv would Bush press the red button? If he did that might the oilfields of the middleeast go up in smoke?
What would happen to the U.S. economy when there was no oil?
How long would Israel survive after such a war started?
These are some of the perils of sleeping with the neocons.
Trying to demonize Israel is like trying to demonize Jeffrey Dahmer. It cannot be done, you just need to show a photograph.

Ron wrote,

The idea is to prevent a nuclear Iran, one which would bomb the Us and Israel, resulting in annihilation of the poor Iranians suffering under the Islamist rulers.

Ah, but then if Iran is capable of bombing us; they are not, then let them bomb us and suffer the consequences.  The resulting annihilation that you speak of is being proposed as a pre-emptive measure by some and that is what we are opposed to.

You further state that a one state solution will result in the demise of Israel.  Ridiculous.  The unarmed Palestinians part of a government that represents them would offer no threat to the Israelis.  No one is proposing that overnight Israel hand over control of the military, the government, and the infrastructure to the Palestinians.  Possibly some are proposing something like this but there is no need to commit suicide here. The situation that occurred in South Africa does not have to occurr in Israel/Palestine.

If my figures are wrong on the amount of aid given to Israel then I apologize. If it is only 3 billion then that is hardly worth talking about by today’s standards.

AS far as George Bush and the neo-cons giving a damn about the average citizen on the street in Israel we are in full agreement.  His and the neo-cons policies have put blood on the hands of the Israelis and ours as well.  To lend any credibility to the nutty neo-con agenda, which the noble Paul Gottfried does not, is foolish at best.

“As for the USSR, Judaism was the ONLY protected religion following the Bolshevik takeover.
Guess why? “

“Because you make up factoids, or regurgitate lies from other sources.
Strictly speaking all religions were equally protected and persecuted under the Bolsheviks. Now Judaism was essentially criminalized under Stalin, and Rabbis and secret practitioners were persecuted under the charge of Zionism and anti-revolutionary activities. “

I recall reading that the Cheka were in the early days of Bolshevik rule, responsible for most of the anti-Christian, and anti-religious purges, and that the ‘Doctor’s Plot’ and Stalin’s antipathy to ‘rootless cosmopolitans’, and their ‘revolutionary conspiracies’ came much much later in Stalin’s rule.

Perhaps you could explain your own ‘factoid’, the blurring of these two chronologically diverse episodes of soviet history, Mr Lowenberg.

I was
only hoping to call attention to the extreme loathing for Israel
that I find among otherwise reasonable and politically
intelligent paleocons.

And why this “extreme loathing”?  Because this website has yet to cleanse itself of Nazis and Klansmen, of the National Alliance and Stormfront.  And “reasonable” and “intelligent” they ain’t.  I have said all this many times. I feel myself vindicated.

Well, whether or not Foy is right in his views about Israel, unlike the Arab nations and people, no one is advocating the use of sanctions, war, and the CIA against Israel.  In the end analysis, what Foy and others from a similar perspective, including Ron Paul, are saying is it is time Israel grows up and makes peace with its Arab neighbors and citizens; or, if they refuse to take that step, then stop looking to the US for endless aid and protection. 

As for the Jewish state, it has the facade of a western and democratic society, but it is also, at the same time, theocratic, militaristic, and racist. Israeli Arabs are treated like black people in the South during segregation. Most Palestinians have spent their whole lives living under Israeli occupation. Everyday Palestinian children are dying from IDF bullets and checkpoints. Gaza has been turned into a living hell. According to polls, many Israelis, perhaps a majority, dream of ethnically cleansing the “Holy Land” of its indigenous Arab population. Israel continues its century old project to confiscate Palestinian land and expand Jewish settlements.The list goes on and on and on.

Witnessing the daily carnage in Palestine sounds rather obscene even to look for something good to say about Israel. And, that has been going along for now almost sixty years now.
Still, Gottfried and other ‘moderate’ Jews are at it as though they were preaching to the six year olds.
In their mantra we are beginning to hear that the extermination of American Indians is equivalent to the extermination of Palestinians, they are currently practicing. What happened three hundred years ago in a lawless America, Gottfried, in a clear attempt to trivialize the slaughter of Palestinians, draws this inane parallel.
Arguing with Jews about Israel’s bestialities, on the basis of Christian Morality is, frankly -a waste of time. Jews are quite uncapable of generosity of putting themselves in somebody elses shoes- they have no feeling for their victims but hatred.
What should be absolutely unacceptable to the rest of us, however, is, that they use us in their criminal adventures.
We won’t change them, but we must demand our total independence from them.
No more, no less.

I hate neonazis.  But I prefer the company of my own race (the white race) and prefer not to associate with blacks and mestizos.  I don’t hate other races and am on friendly terms with them.  I just prefer my own.

http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/

Lester,
I’m sorry that hurt your feelings by challenging assumptions.
I didn’t realise that there was PC Orthodoxy here.
-----------------------------

Allen,

Paul Craig Roberts is either off of in need of medication if he thinks that Olmert is right-wing. Roberts is a good economist, but he has lost all moorings in the Middle East. Olmert is a liberal. It is just t hat PCR has defined anyone who opposes the destruction of Israel as right-wing.
PCR’s rank Fifth Columinst support for Islamist Terrorist does you no favor among those who actually love America as opposed to being solely driven by anti-Zionism.
-------------------------

WillB,
Having denide the right of JEws their religion or heritage, you now say that there is only one. Are you trying to parody anti-Semites or are you serious?
--------------------------------

Lester,
The Canaanites don’t exist. Their polities were destroyed their people either killed, or if you are a Biblical minimalist, they became Israelites. (Old Hebrew like Phoenician and Ugaritic are Canaanite languages.) The simple fact is that there is no historical record of Canaanite peoples as such after the year 1000 BCE. Henry Cattan, a UN LAwyer, isn’t even a descent revisionist, which is why communists fall him. Why do you, Lester?
-------------------------------

Allen,
Regarding the Straits of Hormuz incident, your logic dictates that Israel wants to be destroyed. You also suggest that Iran, while not having “the bomb” can destroy Israeli cities. Do you actually read what you post?
---------------------------

M. Nucci,

“Ah, but then if Iran is capable of bombing us; they are not, then let them bomb us and suffer the consequences.  The resulting annihilation that you speak of is being proposed as a pre-emptive measure by some and that is what we are opposed to.”

So, hitting military targets is evil but suffering thousands of causaulties and then causing millions more is justified.
And you think I have bloodlust?

“You further state that a one state solution will result in the demise of Israel.  Ridiculous.  The unarmed Palestinians part of a government that represents them would offer no threat to the Israelis.  No one is proposing that overnight Israel hand over control of the military, the government, and the infrastructure to the Palestinians.  Possibly some are proposing something like this but there is no need to commit suicide here. The situation that occurred in South Africa does not have to occurr in Israel/Palestine.”

If there is a one state solution, the Arabs will just vote themselves control of the Army. If the Jews resist imminent death, the other Arab states will intervene.

You know nothing the region.

----------------------------------
Sophist,

“I recall reading that the Cheka were in the early days of Bolshevik rule, responsible for most of the anti-Christian, and anti-religious purges, and that the ‘Doctor’s Plot’ and Stalin’s antipathy to ‘rootless cosmopolitans’, and their ‘revolutionary conspiracies’ came much much later in Stalin’s rule.”

The same Checka closed down all non-Communist Jewish institutions and rounded up and killed many Rabbis and Jewish leaders. Judaism was banned, but Jews were not. Confiscation of religious sites, eradication of Jewish cemeteries, and closing of mikvehs (ritual baths) and kosher slaughterhouses hindered religious observance. Perhaps the most significant action was the prohibition of religious circumcision of Jewish male babies. This was a means of ending Jewishness but taking all future children out of the community.

All this occurred before Stalin.
-----------------------------------

GM,

“As for the Jewish state, it has the facade of a western and democratic society, but it is also, at the same time, theocratic, militaristic, and racist”
Sounds like standard Neo-Marxist rhetoric. They make this arguement agout Israel and America.

“Israeli Arabs are treated like black people in the South during segregation.”
Really? During Segregation, Blacks had affirmative action, anti-white leftists ran universities, and blacks owned more property than white Americans?
I guess I learned the wrong history. Or you have no understanding of Israeli race relations.

“. Everyday Palestinian children are dying from IDF bullets and checkpoints.”
None of which existed until t he Intefada. Before that Israel was building hsopitals, schools, universities, and infrastruture fo the Arabs. “PAlestians” in the disputed territory had a high standard of living than their cousins in Egypt and Jordan.

“According to polls, many Israelis, perhaps a majority, dream of ethnically cleansing the “Holy Land” of its indigenous Arab population.”
It isn’t indegeous any more tha we Americans are.

“Israel continues its century old project to confiscate Palestinian land and expand Jewish settlements.The list goes on and on and on.”

That’s odd. 3/4 of “Palestine” is a sovereign stat of Jordan. Of the disputed territories, Israel has handed over all of Gaza. For every expansion of an Israeli community, there are Arabs illegally building on public land in the disputed territories, or illegally crossing over into Israel proper. The international media, whether through communist belief, Third Worldism, or reliance on Arab Stringers don’t know simply facts and don’t report them. They then hide behind the excuse that leftist papers in Israel also lie.

-------------------------------------

Peter RV,
Under Israeli rule, Arab population tripled and GDP/Capita was higher than for Jordan (3/4 of Palestine).
There is no mass murder.

Of course, you hatred for America is no less appealing than your ignorance-fueld hatred for Israel.

So, hitting military targets is evil but suffering thousands of causaulties and then causing millions more is justified.
And you think I have bloodlust?

Yes, you decidedly do have bloodlust.  Your ridiculous argument is that a military target is a threat and any threat is fair game.  So by that logic we should pre-emptively strike,well every military base that is not our own.
I guess we could start with Israel since they have attacked us in the past.

That Iran poses a threat to anyone has been discredited by intelligence reports.
It may also surprise you to hear that there are ways of defending against even a nuclear attack.

If there is a one state solution, the Arabs will just vote themselves control of the Army. If the Jews resist imminent death, the other Arab states will intervene.

I am sure the Israelis who currently hold all the cards in negotiations with the Arabs can manage to write into a new constitution that the military will be shared.  For that matter the Jews could be given the abillity to maintain their own independent military or the whole military thereby eliminating any threat that the Arabs will once in power simply annihilate them.

The same Checka closed down all non-Communist Jewish institutions and rounded up and killed many Rabbis and Jewish leaders. Judaism was banned, but Jews were not. Confiscation of religious sites, eradication of Jewish cemeteries, and closing of mikvehs (ritual baths) and kosher slaughterhouses hindered religious observance. Perhaps the most significant action was the prohibition of religious circumcision of Jewish male babies. This was a means of ending Jewishness but taking all future children out of the community.

All this occurred before Stalin.

I find a number of points made in this paragraph extraordinary.  So you are saying that there were in fact communist Jewish organizations?  This would then seem to refute your argument that Jews bore no responsibility for the slaughter carried out by the communists.  Were there also Catholic communist organizations? This abuse that Jews suffered at the hands of the communists would come under the heading of playing with fire and getting burned.  A good reason that all Jews should take note of the neo-cons and Evangelicals and view them as the same kind of fire.

That’s odd. 3/4 of “Palestine” is a sovereign stat of Jordan. Of the disputed territories, Israel has handed over all of Gaza. For every expansion of an Israeli community, there are Arabs illegally building on public land in the disputed territories, or illegally crossing over into Israel proper. The international media, whether through communist belief, Third Worldism, or reliance on Arab Stringers don’t know simply facts and don’t report them. They then hide behind the excuse that leftist papers in Israel also lie.

Evidence that your argument that a one state solution simply will not work is completely wrong, or am I ignorant of the apartheid going on in Jordan?  Are you also suggesting that the media are reporting the facts in a light that is not favorable to Jews and actually are putting an Arab slant on things?  I find myself living in a whole different world.  I am going to fire off a letter to the New York Times and tell them to stop pandering to these terrorists and give Israel a fair shake.

On a separate topic;

There is no good analogy to the situation in Israel and the native Americans.  The native Americans are free to leave their reservations and enjoy all the rights of American Citizens.  They in fact have rights that other Americans do not such as protected monopolies to run casinos in many states.
Perhaps the same kind of thing could be done for the Palestinians by way of compensation.

To say that for over 60 years trying to force a two state solution or apartheid situation that leads to violence proves that the Palestinians are unreasonable and dangerous is wrong.  This in no way proves that the Palestinians will not listen to reason.  If that be the case then what harm is there to try?  Nothing has to be done overnight but give them something real and if they reject it then they will lose any sympathy worldwide for their plight because it will be completely on their own hands.  To offer them something that is clearly intolerable and then point to their rejection of that as evidence of their unwillingness to make peace is simply dishonest.

ron- henry cattan argued against the creation of israel at the UN.  I’m not sure he is a UN lawyer specifically.

and he is deceased. We happen to have different interprettations of history.  to most people in the middle east, that regino is not synonymous with jews the way it is in western civilization. 

even forgetting the BC era DNA diasagreements, isn’t 18 centuries enuogh to establish a presence somewhere?  I’d feel I could call a place my home after living their that long.

@Ron,

I was speaking as a Christian in a strict
scriptural sense. If you consider that to
be anti-semitic then you need to take that
up with a higher authority.
I have always been taught that a Jew is one
that keeps the WHOLE Law and observed
“traditions” serve only to circumvent the
Law and make it of no effect.
Of course you and I need not debate this.
I recognize Judaism per se, and am not
anti-semitic but I do not deny my God
given right of discernment and righteous
indignation.
Anyway, good luck with finding peace in
Israel.
Adios.

Ron Lewenberg

Your ranting and raving proves exactly my point : there is no possible discussion about Israel’s behaviour, between Christians and the Jews.
If one accepts ‘Love thy neighbour..” as a credo and the other “Eye for Eye.., where is the moral meeting ground?
Jewish actions are based, consequently, on a disproportionate lust for revenge against their victims (BTW,who are responding to their violence) which can never be acceptable to the Christians.
The PC nonsense of “judeo-christianism”
which is a pure contradiction of terms, is a gimmick produced by the minds of our charlatan preachers and zionist rabbis, to blur the Christian moral values.(One manipulates easier moral idiots).
Deep down in his heart a Christian can’t really deny that sufferings of Palestinian people reminds of the sufferings of Jesus Christ.
Our religion was based on Love and Forgivness- not on Hatred and Vengeance.
Sorry.

I was watching a late night program on the psycopathic personality the other night and the main message was that these deranged personalities have in common that they are divorced from reality, they live in a tortured world of delusions and have pat explanations for the serial murders some of them commit.
This divorce from reality makes them evil, and they are further characterized by a lack of conscience, empathy, compassion and humanity.
If images of the neocons and zionist Israel are flashing through your mind you may live in a world where your associations are related to reality.
If that did not happen then you may need to call the nearest mental health facility and turn yourself in for treatment for zionist sociopathy. The prognosis is not good as there is no cure for the sociopathic personality. You may do yourself a favor by contacting Dr. Kevorkian instead.

Most of the whiners here are just aching because Jews have a coherent culture, history, identity, and land. Meanwhile, the West circles the drain.

Ironically, trying to bring others down instead of improving yourselves is very Middle Eastern. But I suppose Third World mentality is worth getting used to, since that’s where the west is headed.

All Middle Eastern nations are fake countries with unnatural borders drawn up by Europeans. Few have any real identity, besides the nations of Egypt, Iran, Israel, Turkey, Morocco.

This is why this region continues to fall deeper into chaos each year. Mind your white business and leave us to expand or reduce our borders are we see fit until we reach a suitable balance. We’re gonna do it anyway, so save yourselves the headache.

“sufferings of Palestinian people reminds of the sufferings of Jesus Christ.”

ROFLMAO

The Bill for “Supporting Israel” This week is coming in!

- The U.S economy is tanking as the balance of payments disaster caused by The trillion $ war in Iraq on behalf of Israel is coming due (witness warnings from Dr. Ron Paul)

- Neocons are watching their loot disappear over the horizon (along with the rest of us) as the stock market stalls, goes into a tail spin, and takes a nose dive.

-Citibank along with threst of the key financial giants of the U.S. are being acquired by the arabs and the chinese as we once again demonstrate what Defending Israel is costing us.

-The Russian chief of staff has announced that they will usenuclear weapons to stop Israel and the U.S if they make one false move.

- The chinese have announced that there will be no sanctions against Iran.
- The Russians have delivered the 4th shipment of nuclear fuel to Iran.

- The brit. councils in Russia are being shut down.

- Russian bombers are buzzingDenmark and UK airspaces.
- Analysts are saying that the Afghan war is “just beginning”. Gates is blaming NATO.

We are heading into the worst depression since 1933.

Ahmedinajed has challenged the U.S. and Israel again and predicted the collapse of the Zionist state again.

Lets sing Havana Gila now, and “defend Israel” some more as we witness the economis, and military and diplomatic destruction of the U.S.

@Allen,

I have said this in the past, and I see Dr. Paul saying it as well, and that is that China is a serious threat to us.  They don’t even need to attack us.  They can destroy us by flipping a switch and no longer trading with us. Overnight the U.S. economy would be in shambles.  They do benefit from our trade with them but we must always keep in mind that they are a communist country given to group thinking and if the group is told that job one is destroy America then they commit economic suicide without a second thought.  Russia and China can defy us at will because we have bankrupted ourselves protecting ‘our oil’ and they know the cards we are holding.  The biggest card they hold is that the last eight years of foreign intervention has sapped America’s will to be an empire.  We foolishly disregarded the threat of the Russians and Chinese to pursue a short terms gain for the monied elites.  You are correct in your comments and the bill will soon come due.

@Nucci:
You are roght “China is a threat”. Pat buchannan was warning us in the early 90’s. His message to protect U.S jobs, and pursue a conservative domestic and foreign policy was drowned out by shrieks of “anti-semitic”

We should have made U.S. corporations re-invest in the U.S., we did the opposite.
Jobs, innovation and technical know-how was sent to china while U.S. workers where made jobless.

We embarked on a neocon inspired crusade to conquer the world without having the economic base to do it.

Now it is probably too late to save the day.

Allen wrote,

Jobs, innovation and technical know-how was sent to china while U.S. workers where made jobless.

and of course the idiot neo-cons don’t consider these things to be national security issues.  For their limited world view the only national security issues involve killing and pouring money into weapons manufacturers.  The welfare of the American people has never been at the top of the list of important things for them either because they are globalists.  A globalist is someone who doesn’t feel he can profit on another man’s labor in just one country and therefore he pushes a pc agenda on the rest of the world to open new territories for exploitation.  I think this started back in the 19th century when the Japanese were forced at gun point to open their society to the west.
The globalists push an agenda on the world that promotes extreme consumption.  The only thing that can power their world view is rampant overconsumption of resources.

I know I am going off on a tangent but it is a big peeve of mine just how much society promotes consumption.  Even in durable goods such as houses we are encouraged to update that look in our houses.  I often wonder what happened to letting a house look like it did when it was made?  And aren’t we in a way destroying our history?  When I see a place with original 50s, 60s, or 70s decor I think it is so cool because it brings me back to when I was a kid (the 60s and 70s that is) and I wonder why people are encouraged to spend good money to tear out cabinets, carpet, tile, flooring, and light fixtures that are all perfectly good and now are tossed into a landfill.  The end result of course is that when someone actually needs lumber for a repair or to build something that is truly needed they find the price is jacked up from all the wanton consumption.  With the help of the Fed we are consuming ourselves into poverty because a lot of that money ends up in China which of course is like taking money right out of our own pockets.  We save money because we get to buy something at a reduced rate because it is made by slave labor but then we lose value in our own dollar and we have to turn around and help the American who is put out of a job by the slave labor so after we saved by buying Chinese was it really cheaper?

Nobody’s reading this but just to clarify the above comment. I think it’s insightful and valuable for Dr. Gottfried to seperate (in our minds - he’s writing a column) Israelis from some of their over-the-top cheeleaders in America. But I think rhetoric like hyper-Zionist tends to encourage the Israel-haters that he doesn’t like. Also, it reinforces the loony idea that we’re in Iraq just for Israels’s sake.

Peter RV,

I see that you are not a Chirstian, but a follower of Gnostic heresaies. Otherwise how can you be a Christian and claim tha the dieties of the Old and New Testaments are different. (As a Jew, I can but that’s because I see no religious validity in Christian Scriptures.)

Allen,

How is this a war for Israel as opposed for the Saudis, Kuwaitis and the oil lobby?

“-Citibank along with threst of the key financial giants of the U.S. are being acquired by the arabs and the chinese as we once again demonstrate what Defending Israel is costing us.”

So now you are suggesting that there are other interests? Has it occured to you that these influenced the US propr to 2003?

“-The Russian chief of staff has announced that they will usenuclear weapons to stop Israel and the U.S if they make one false move.

- The chinese have announced that there will be no sanctions against Iran.
- The Russians have delivered the 4th shipment of nuclear fuel to Iran. “

The Communist-Islamist alliance continues. Which side are you on again?

M. Nucci,
You do understand the neocons and Israel are not the same, right?