This is August 1914 or August 1939, take your pick. Do you want to die for Danzig or Tilbisi?

The words from our glorious leaders are the most inspiring since they mouthed off about the outrageous violation of democracy perpetrated by the glorious leader of Zimbabwe.  If America had clean hands these days, our righteous indignation just might amount to something; as things are, we sound downright pathetic.

We have no vital interests in who controls South Ossetia, but we do have a vital interest in not blundering into another Cold War with Russia or worse.  We should go back to speaking softly and carrying a big stick, instead of the opposite.

I congratulate Russia on looking after its own people. There are too many liberals in the paleo-conservative/libertarian movement who fail to understand nationhood and global power politics.

We may not have any vital interest, but the people behind the BTC pipeline have a rather expensive stake in Georgia.  You can get a pretty informative take on that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline

Paleos should certainly support freedom for South Ossetia. Georgia appears to be the aggressor here. But what is Russia’s stake in all this? Are the people of OS Russian? Why shouldn’t Russia be non-interventionist in their neighbor’s quarrel? Maybe there is a good reason, I don’t know. OS strikes me as not really the issue here. This is something between Russia and Georgia and OS has the misfortune of being in the way. Why should Russia care?

Georgia was the aggressor, but the Russians had planned for this possibility. Bravo to them. As Pat Buchanan said in a speech in 2000, the future could be one of patriots of all countries united against the transnational elite globalists.

The distinctions between patriotism, nationalism and globalism are paramount here. To serve in the cause of the globalists under a false flag of patriotism is not an option for honorable men.

It’s absolute tragedy to see Christians slaughtering each others for the whims of
preening politicians, especially the junior league Napoleons in Tiblisi. Blood is
on their hand.

Washington’s reaction? Predictable. Apparently they still believe Kosovo is a
“special case”. The hypocrites!

It is amazing to see people who rightfully supported Serbia over Kosovo, suddenly take the Greater Albania position is supporting Russia.

I guest non-interventionism and sovereignty are just codewords for reflexive support for the enemies of the US or of our friends.

Would someone explain why the South Ossettians were justified in first having accepted Comrade Putin’s offer of Russian citizenship, then attacking Georgia, and finally hiding behind the Red Bear when it Georgia responds?

Or is anyone going to discuss Putin’s obvious ply to control the Caspian oil pipeline to allow Russia to
1) cut Azerbaijan out of the energy producing market
2) Hold Europe hostage
3) divy up Caspian energy with Iran?

Forgot to ask,

Why is it that we are acting aggressively in suggesting a ceasefire, but Russia is not in invading a neighboring country over a border dispute?

I suspect Russia sees a chance here to kick some dirt in Uncle Sam’s face.  It’s quite overdue.  The idiocy of our rulers in handling post Soviet relations with Russia is mind-boggling.  With the likes of Richard Holbrooke, Condoleeza Rice and other such foreign policy retards preaching to Russia on proper behavior, they’ve taken US hypocrisy to new heights.  With the end of the Cold War, the US had a splendid opportunity to mend fences and build stronger ties with the Russian people and government.  Instead, Washington’s global busy bodies busied themselves with implementing the moral, legal and logically absurd policies of attacking Serbia and recognizing independence for “Kosovo”.  Sure, and while we’re at it, how about invading and occupying Iraq and threatening Iran?  If I were not an agnostic, I’d plead for God to help us.  How long are we to be cursed with these mindless ignoramuses in Washington playing world policeman?

As someone who has no time for airy theories of self-determination, I don’t support South Ossetian independence and I doubt they had any legal right to break away from Georgia, but I also understand that their incorporation into Georgia SSR was one of those artificial games that the Soviets played with ethnic groups to divide and conquer their subjects.  South Ossetia has been de facto out of Georgian control for 17 years or so, so what was the urgency in restoring it now?  Reportedly over a thousand people have died in the first day of hostilities, so it’s not clear to me that Saakashvili is in the right by launching this strike even if South Ossetia does belong to Georgia. 

The status quo was that Georgia could not exercise sovereignty over South Ossetia, whose people hate Georgians for what they did to them in the last century, so Russia filled the vacuum and is maintaining, more or less, the status quo against Georgia’s efforts to establish control over this region.  Georgia had some legitimate claim to this territory, but as a practical matter using force was the worst way to take control over something that should legally be theirs.  It was already difficult to resolve this matter through negotiation, and now it will be nearly impossible.  Saakashvili’s haste and recklessness have made sure that his country’s legitimate rights are undermined. 

“I guest [sic] non-interventionism and sovereignty are just codewords for reflexive support for the enemies of the US or of our friends.”

This isn’t true, and I suspect that the commenter knows it isn’t true.  At the very least, had the U.S. ever demonstrated respect for state sovereignty in international affairs over the last 20 years Washington would at least be in the position to take issue with violations of Georgian sovereignty, such as they are.  In reality, what Moscow has done is a misdemeanor in comparison to the felonies Washington has committed.  That doesn’t mean that Moscow should be able to do what it has been doing, but it does mean that Moscow will be able to do it without any real consequences.  That is the world that the interventionists made, just as non-interventionists warned time after time.  Ultimately, we can only be responsible for what our government does and we must be concerned first and foremost with whether our government respects the sovereignty of other states.  Once we have accomplished that, then we might be able to dwell on the violations of others.

Daniel, say it isn’t so. You are usually so right. I really didn’t know much about this situation until today so I have been reading up. Ossetians are clearly a distinct people ethnically, linguistically, culturally etc. They certainly deserve their own homeland. I don’t even see how that would be a point of debate among paleos. It is not a question of a legal right to break away. It is a question of right. They have twice voted for independence. The last time by an OVERWHELMING majority. The US should recognize South Ossetia’s independence and not give a plug nickel about Georgia’s “territorial integrity.” (Spoken like the true Lincolnite government that we are.)

I don’t get the logic here. So voluntary unions such as the US before the WBTS have a legal right to unilaterally break apart, but if you happen to be the unfortunate victims of conquest and oppression you are just stuck? Well tough luck for them. I guess if they wanted independence they should have been born into a larger and stronger ethnic group.

Ossetia never belonged to the Soviet Union and it certainly did not then belong to Georgia when the Soviet Union broke up and new lines were drawn on a map. Georgia has no legitimate reason to insist that a people who are clearly distinct and who do not want to remain a part of Georgia must. They certainly have no legitimate reason to insist by force.

That said, we should not militarily intervene. Also that said, I don’t trust Russia’s motives. What is their dog in this hunt? Something tells me it is not the self determination desires of the South Ossetian people.

And for the record Ron, while I acknowledged the situation was complicated, I did not oppose Kosovo’s independence. The legitimacy of their claim is debatable, but if Spain can oppose the recognition of Kosovo on the grounds that it might make the Basque region frisky, then I can support it for the same reason.

Daniel, I thought you were generally on my side on the nationalism vs. decentralization issue.

Speaking of hypocrisy, why can we berate the Chinese for oppressing the Tibetans and pledge to defend Taiwan, but poor little ol’ South Ossetia ought to shut up and quit their whining and get back to mother Georgia where they belong?

Sean Scallon: I agree with your post.

Ronl: “It is amazing to see people who rightfully supported Serbia over Kosovo, suddenly take the Greater Albania position is supporting Russia.”

You might have a point.  However, the inverse appears true as well.  All over the net I am coming across blogs who supported Kosovo breaking away, but do not support S. Ossetia doing the same.

Bottom line: Sitting here in Jacksonville, Alabama, the fighting between Russia and Georgia has the least amount of impact on my life, and the position of the regime occupying Washington City should be one of diplomatic neutrality.

The reality is, however, that the regime occupying Washington City is NOT neutral, therefore I can not help but sympathize with the Russians and Ossetians, wishing to free themselves from the yoke of the Georgians.

However, I can not quite get as excited about any of this; not like I get excited about my government bleeding my paycheck and counterfeiting money to pay for various domestic and international boondoggles.

Patrick, to clarify, on the current matter we should remain diplomatically neutral. On the matter of recognizing the independence of South Ossetia, which is inherently an international issue, we should recognize them. As should other nations and the illegitimate UN.

Whether or not Russia is right or wrong, or partly both, that region is her traditional sphere of influence, as the Western Hemisphere is ours.  If a major war broke out between Latin American countries, our traditional foreign policy since long before we stupidly embraced overseas interventionism says we would be forced to mediate the situation or take a side.  If Russia took a side in such a conflict, it would be the same as our “leaders” opening their mouths about this Georgia conflict.  If Russia invaded Romania or Poland that would be cause for Western concern, but this is not.

“The answer to all these questions is, of course, No”

I hope you’re right.  My impression of McCain is that he really is crazy enough to get the US & NATO into war with Russia.

RonL:
“I guest non-interventionism and sovereignty are just codewords for reflexive support for the enemies of the US or of our friends. “

Russia should be left alone in her sphere (eg the Caucasus), the USA in her sphere (eg the Caribbean).

Condi Rice was supposed to be a Russian expert. She has careened from disaster to disaster and is a complete failure. I can see why she is so highly thought of by Republicans.

Georgia may have done a Bay of Pigs number and is waiting for the US to bail them out with massive intervention. I wonder if Cheney put them up to this?

Vladimir Putin will get my vote for President this November. At least one
leader is not afraid to assert his country’s national interests. Now, if he
will restore the Tsars, even better....

Free South Ossetia!

That said, what is Russia’s national interests here? Is it just proximity? That it is her “sphere?”

I’m at least half asking a real question and not just making a point. What Russia’s interests are here has not been sufficiently explained.

Intervention vs. sovereignty is a false antithesis.  Non-interventionists, which we all are here, needn’t and shouldn’t appeal to the anachronistic concept of state sovereignty in order to oppose intervention.  There are other, better grounds on which to oppose it.  We’re now a hundred years into the decline of the old world order of sovereign territorial states, which is a bad thing, but what applied a century ago doesn’t apply today.  It’s dangerous to speak and act as if it did.

I am with my friend Dr. Cathey here, as always. They key here seems to me to be that Putin and Medvedev are seeking to protect a significant Russian population in a region that for all I know is an artificial part of the Georgia only since Soviet times. I think that in such a case (if true), there is a true Russian national interest to protected, in distinction, for example, from the case of a few American tourists or expats in a particular place (with all sympathy for the recently-murdered American in China and his family, not even President Bush and his neocon cohorts are talking about sending US troops there). In the cases of the tourists or expats, they generally have voluntarily sought to be in the place outside US jurisdiction, whereas in the case of many Russians living in the former Soviet countries, they had no idea at the time that they would placed under non-Russian (OK, Soviet, but the Russian component was always paramount) rule. Admittedly this gets fuzzy the longer people have been in the area, but I think the basic premise holds.

All this said, I repeat my mantra: we Texians don’t have a dog in this fight and sure as heck should stay out of it.  Oh, but someone will invoke the sacred substance (oil, pronounced “all” or “Texas tea"), but word in these parts is that there’s lots more of that good stuff in formations (e.g. the Barnett Shale)here in the US just waiting for the new drilling technology to come on line, so why waste money and lives on the black gold over thar in Georgia, or for that matter the sand pit, for cryin’ out loud.

Red,

The people of South Ossetia want Russia’s help. They clearly prefer Russia to Georgia. Many of them are Russian citizens. There aren’t that many of them so they believe they need Russia’s protection. Those are good enough reasons for Russia to intervene.

BTW for centuries Russia, in effect, protected Georgia from Turkish/Muslim conquest. The Georgian language and culture seem to have survived nicely under Russian/Soviet rule.

Although I am sure I am missing something here, I thought that the raison d’etre of NATO evaporated the day the Soviet Union fell.

Institutions endure: One simply cannot put personally-well-connected international civil servants, with their tax-free six-digit salaries, peremptorily out of work.

South Ossetia is something around 2% Russian.  It is majority “Ossetian”, or Alani, with maybe 30% ethnic Georgians.

The Ossetian language is closely related to Pashto, the most common language in Afghanistan.

Given the Ossetians are mostly Russian Orthodox, they are naturally closer to Russia than any other nation.

Well of course South Ossetia wants Russia’s help. Why wouldn’t they? But that is not sufficient reason for Russia to give it to them. Israel wants our help. I don’t think we should give it to them.

It is an indication of the incredible ignorance of the general American populace with respect to world matters, that the MSM and our “leaders” get away with presenting this dispute as an attempt by the bad Russians to conquer the brave “democracy” of Georgia. I bet half of the people in Alabama are worrying right now about the Russkies becoming their next door neighbors.

Not quie Mr. Hoermann.  We Alabamians worry about illegal Mexicans becoming our next door neighbors.

As others have pointed out this situation is simply a replay of 1)Operation Storm in 1995 when Croats with American complicity ethnically cleansed Krajina Serbs from Croatia and 2)Kosovo where the US backed KLA cleansed Kosovo Serbs from Kosovo. Once the cleansers achieve their objectives they run to UN crying for a ceasefire whereby hapless UN peacekeepers come in and stand around and watch the cleansers try to finish the job (ie Kosovo 2004). Hopefully Russia has learned from these situations and will crush the Georgian scumbags like grapes and let the Bush-Cheney clique know once and for all they need to stop fomenting trouble in other people’s backyards.

“Swell Mel”, speak for yourself.

>>Israel military advisors are said to have instructed Georgians how to attack.<<

Given their performance during the latest butt-kicking administered by Hamas, I don’t think I’d be taking advice from Israel.

My son, who spent most of the last year in Georgia learning Georgian and Russian, told me several months ago that Saakashvili was a nut. He was elected in a not-so-fair election last fall in large part because he promised to “take back” Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It’s a theme he was returning to with increasing frequency and intensity in the past several weeks, and nobody should be surprised that he is actually trying to make good on his promise now. If you want to hear a different side to the story (different from what you would get at CNN, etc.), you might want to take a look at http://tarjimani.blogspot.com which posts translations (by my son, I admit) of Russian and Georgian news reports and analyses .

A quick correction to the previous post: the Georgian presidential election was held January 5 of this year, not last fall.

Swell Mel, if you Alabamians now could only convince your Senators and Congressmen what the real threat is. They still think it’s the Russkies.

Poor Georgia:
The latest killing field of the 2,000 year old war between the jews and the gentiles.
The zionists may have made a pact of the “exodus” with the anti-semites, and got the support of the gentiles to get the hell out, but they want revenge. They want to bring down the gentiles in a new crusade and they want to mess with the gentiles.
Hence, the zionist sent arms and equipment and “retired” Israeli army personnel to set this false flag operation up.
Russia wants them to stay away. Just check out the panic at Haaretz, as the rats jump the Georgian ship. They are beginning to realize that as far as Russia is concerned, enough is enough.
For now.
Poor Georgia:
The latest killing field of the 2,000 year old war between the jews and the gentiles.
The zionists may have made a pact of the “exodus” with the anti-semites, and got the support of the gentntiles to get the hell out, but they want revenge. They want to bring down the gentiles in a new crusade and they want to mess with the gentiles.
Hence, the zionist sent arms and equipment and “retired” Israeli army personnel to set this false flag operation up.
Russia wants them to stay away. Just check out the panic at Haaretz, as the rats jump the Georgian ship. They are beginning to realize that as far as Russia is concerned, enough is enough.
For now.

Poor Georgia:
The latest killing field of the 2,000 year old war between the jews and the gentiles.
The zionists may have made a pact of the “exodus” with the anti-semites, and got the support of the gentntiles to get the hell out, but they want revenge. They want to bring down the gentiles in a new crusade and they want to mess with the gentiles.
Hence, the zionist sent arms and equipment and “retired” Israeli army personnel to set this false flag operation up.
Russia wants them to stay away. Just check out the panic at Haaretz, as the rats jump the Georgian ship. They are beginning to realize that as far as Russia is concerned, enough is enough.
For now.

S Ossetia became part of Georgia because Stalin made it part of Georgia (not exactly fair as Stalin was a Georgian).

Stalin was actually Ossetian.

It being insufficient for many paleocons merely to say that we should not be involved,
many here have vehemently taken the side of Russia.  Which proves that for many paleocons,
“if you don’t like it, go back to Russia” is an applicable retort.

With all due respect Tobias: If the neocons, Israel, McCain and Rice are against Russia, then Russia must be in the right.

A conflict on the other side of the world!  Quick, paleos, we must all choose a side!  We must decide who is Good and who is Evil.  What are we, some kind of localists or something?  Hurry, to Wikipedia!  There’s no time to lose!

Judging by the comments even traditional conservatives contain a large number of imperialists and internationalist busybodies. Is it ever possible for an American to simply say “its none of business”? Georgia and Russia must work this out on their own The only interest the USA has is keeping on good terms with 120 million Russians and their thousands of nuclear weapons.

So how soon until Norman Podhoretz and crew come out with the usual lines about Nazi appeasement, Chamberlain, Munich, etc?

Mr. Larison,
Were it up to me, South Ossetian semi-autonomy would have been ratified on the same lines as the Georgians gave the Adjarians. It was Russia which prevented such negotiations. Likewise, it was Russian occupation of Ossetia (peacekeepers), which created the current conflict. The South Ossetian defense minister was literally a member of the Russian government until recently and the Ossetian attacks on Georgia on 8/2, which sarted this conflict could only have occured with the backing of Moscow. Russian “peacekeepers” stood by as freshly repainted Russian artillery fired on indisputably Georgian territory. It is no coincidence that for the past two months Russia has been placing more “peacekeepers” in Abkhazia and Ossetia, just as they began an “anti-terrorism” exercise in Southern Russia just before shells landed in Georgia.

Did Saakashvili act impetuously to Russian agression? Yes. He fell right into Putins hands.

I don’t see the issue as one really of sovereignty. The Soviets fostered the Ossetian and Abkhaz independence movement in the last year of the USSR, just as they helped push along the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict. This is how they wished to keep control.
The truth is that our crimes against Serbia came well after the Soviets began playing ethnic lines and independence games.

But I hope you will join me, and a bi-partisan understanding that the appropriate response is a ceasefire and negotiations in the Caucuses.
Russia’s current drive into Gori, the Georgian city of Stalin’s birth is troubling for many reasons.

Mr. Hall,
So you support our enemies because you dislike our policies. Sounds like you have actually declared yourself to be a fifth columnist. I hope you were joking.

PS. Are James and Al trying to mock the position of the pro-communist empire/ Russophiles or are they proof that antisemitism is an illness. I cna’t tell.

Mr. Smith,
I have called neocons on hypocracy over this and other issues. But this is not a neocon site, and I would hate to think that paleoconservatism has devolved into mere anti-neoconservatism.

Mr. MacGarr,
Russia did not sit on the sidelines and later intervene. It used a proxy to start a war, and then used Georgias response as a causus beli.

Mr. Newmann,
Both McCain and Obama have condemned Russian aggression and called for a ceasefire. Who is calling for war, except for Putin?
Even Saakashvili has been calling for a ceasefire since Sunday morning.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121841306186328421.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

As for leaving us in our sphere, Russia is arming Venezuela and retains security guarantees with Cuba.

Red Phillips,
Ossetes don’t want independence. They want their Russian overlordship formalized.

Matra,
Do you know how Russia gained Georgia? It allowed Persia to take part of it in 1800 and then invaded the rest, formalizing the conquest in 1801.
As for Georgian culture, how many churches were destroyed by the Soviets. How much of Georgian history was rewritten to whims of Stalin?
Werner Hoermann,
That would assume that Americans are watching the news, and that our news was not follwing the Olympics, Senator Edwards’s love child, and the “disappearence” of a 3 year old girl name Kaley or somesuch.

Mr. Hall,
Don’t confuse the lack of will of the Olmert junta with Israeli military power. Israel could have leveled Gaza and Lebanon. It is too nice to do so.
The West is militarily strong but politically weak. And unlike states where the government controls the media and offs journalists who question Kremlin lies, we are hobbled those on the left and right who automatically cleave to anyone opposing the US.

RonL. I’ll take Putin and the Russians over Israel any day. Putin puts his country first not some nasty little racist state. Our politicians are owned by Israel. What the hell is Israel sticking it’s nose in Geogia for except in an attempt to grab the central asian oil resourses. Get all your people out of Georgia and let the people in the region settle their own problems. This is Russia’s backyard. I sure hope the Russians have a few big ones pointed at Israel, if it trys to use it’s nuclear arsenal againt Iran or onyone else.

Mr. Hall,
Don’t confuse the lack of will of the Olmert junta with Israeli military power. Israel could have leveled Gaza and Lebanon.

Israel could have NUKED Lebanon.  That was pretty much the only way it could have escalated, given the indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon’s civilian infrastructure and its dropping of hundreds of thousands of cluster bombs.

Yes, Israel refrained from nuking Lebanon, but only because it would have been diplomatically disastrous and would have led to Israel’s international isolation, As we speak, intellectual elite from Israel, like Benny Morris, are trying to find ways to create the public environment that could stomach a scenario where Israel drops nuclear bombs on Iran.  Israel, as far as I’m concerned, is morally bankrupt.  Of course, I could be wrong.  Maybe any middle eastern group with the amount of power that the Jews have would be doing the same thing.

Thanks! Really interesting. Big ups!

The original Jack, how does it serve paleo purposes (assuming you care) to call Israel a “racist state?” One issue paleos have always had with Israel’s defenders is that they defend particularism for Israel but want universalism for the West. Are you suggesting that Israel should be just another proposition nation?

Ron, as I said, I don’t trust Russia’s motives and don’t doubt that there is blame to go around. As for S. Ossetia, there are situations when an arrangement of de facto independence (Kurdistan) might be the more prudent course than actual independence. Why they would perceive themselves as better off as a satellite of Russia than as a fairly autonomous region of Georgia, I don’t know. My point is that the territorial integrity of some artificial nation state is not what I am interested in preserving.

I do think there is a Putin Derangement Syndrome which is a subset of Russia Derangement Syndrome, but I also think a reciprocal Putin Admiration Syndrome has arisen that strikes me as primarily reactive.

I called Israel a racist state because it is one. I am no racist. I believe citizens no matter what their color deserve basic human rights. That also applies to non citizens legally resident in those states. I am a paleo in regards to religion, national soveignty, economic common sense, peace and America first. I don’t believe in the white nationalism some try to peddle here. Israel and national socialist Germany are too prime examples of what racist states evolve into.You have to get used to the fact that America is never going to be a white bastion. It will become like Brazil or Mexico, one nation but very mixed. The Israeli’s haven’t killed their subhuman subjects yet, lets hope somehow common sense prevails. No matter what, it should be the prime paleo goal to end Israeli influence over the goverment of america.

toj, I’m not a “white nationalist” either, but it never serves paleo interests to toss around the word racist or to take the position of I’m more color-blind than though. If you are going to criticize Israel, you should do so in language that doesn’t empower the left-wing PC thought police.

Oops ... though = thou above.

Those bandying about side-taking should restrain themselves.  The facts are many and complicated.

Dr. Phillips in particular should slow down lest he strat resembling the typical yahoo willing to pull the trigger (literally and metaphorically).  The S. Ossetians do not seek independence; they seek a spot in the Russian Federation.  They are indeed an ethnolinguistically unique people.  So what?  Do you have any idea how many ethnolinguistically unique people there are in teh world?  In Euorpe alone?  If we followed your proposition, the US could find itself supporting about a thousand secessionist movements and border re-arrangments worldwide in a matter of days.  Ethnicity and language have never been the sole determinants of political arrangements that define states.  I am not proposing that your position would not be a theoretically happy place for the world to be - where individual “peoples” form their own, locally-oriented polities.  But reality gets in the way of things. 

Theory aside, who would even determine what constitutes a “people”.  Who determines where borders are drawn?  A referndum?  In this age of uninformed populations at the mercy of media manipulation? 

Please, let’s all settle down.  I like the advice given earlier to keep our noses out of this.

I failed to emphasize for Dr. Phillips what others have already mentioned concerning this conflict which should give us all pause and a frame of refernce for deconstructing the propoganda blitz that has begun:

1.  A crude oil pipeline, mostly owned by US and UK firms, traverses Georgia. 

2.  The Georgian president was installed by a color-coded revolution that has the US security services stamps on it. 

3.  Just within the past year the US, breaking a promise that Bush I made, sought to further expand NATO by including Georgia. 

4.  Washington politicians are sabre-rattling at Russia…

5. ...but it was Georgian forces that fired on Russian peacekeepers that started this battle. 

Imagine the analog on our border and consider what your diplomatic prescription would mean from our American perspective.

Funny how for some people it’s always about Israel, no matter how distantly or tangentially Israel is involved. It’s always about the Jews. Even if the Jews didn’t exist, it would be about the Jews…

Funny how for some people it’s always about Israel, no matter how distantly or tangentially Israel is involved. It’s always about the Jews. Even if the Jews didn’t exist, it would be about the Jews…

True, but this equally true for some Jews, who in every event see a threat or advantage to the Jewish people and Israel.  A prime example is RonL.

With all due respect Crane: The Georgian army is full of retired Israeli soldiers acting as consultants. Israel supplies the Georgians with arms and the neocon project is to humiliate Russia instead of trying to cooperate with it. It all started when Putin cracked down on the Russian mafia which had looted and almost destroyed the country. Since many of these thieves were of Jewish background and fled to Israel,follow the money.

Gori has fallen, it’s on to the capitol now.  I wonder where the Georgian clown will wind up, probably here in the USA.

Sure, it’s none of our business. That doesn’t mean we can’t form an opinion or write about it. It’s the disinterest and apathy in anything not related to our personal concerns-of-the-day that got our country hijacked by insane bloodthirsty neo-Republicans who make a career out of getting American involved around the world to enforce the interests of Israel. As it turns out, Israel has its covert agents all over the world manipulating whatever they can. That’s how so much turns out being about Israel.

My question is, what is their beef with Putin?

Red Phillips:
“That said, what is Russia’s national interests here? Is it just proximity? That it is her “sphere?“”

One of the reasons are Northern Ossetians. Which of course are (loyal) citizens of the Russian Federation and expect of it to do something for their ethnic brethren accross the mountain peaks in a situation like this.

Russian Federation is a Russian nation-state, but it is also in many ways a state of other smaller ethnic nations within her borders.

Eagle, of course we should keep our nose out of this. I have never suggested otherwise. In fact, I think I have been less inclined than many to jump on the Russia as good guy bandwagon. I was primarily reacting to Daniel Larison’s statement that South Ossetia had no legal right to seek independence.

Theoretically, devolution and independence movements are a return to government on a human scale and a blow to the modern nation state. They should generally be rhetorically supported, and violence to prevent them should be condemned. I am not advocating a foreign policy of intervening on behalf of secessionist movements. I am talking about what the rhetorical position of paleos should be.

Amin,

It may surprise you, but until last week, I had no idea that there were Israelis in Goergia. I know that there were Gruzniks and Tats (Georgian and Mountain Jews).

However, my support for Georgia has nothing to do with Israel. Allowing Russia and Iran to completely control Caspian Oil is against US National interest.

Original Jack,
There indeed are retired Israeli soldiers in the Georgian army. Taht is because Georgian faces not only Ossetia and Abhkazi, but many Chechens tried to control the Paninski gorge and other valleys on the Chechen border.  Georgia wanted to control its own territory and prevent Russia from “intervening”

Israel has, however, allowed Russia to veto arms sales including the upgrading of Georgias Mig-21s as well as the last shipment of Tavor rifles.

I know that some people only want to see Jews or Israel, but Russia controls the area.

Jack Rich,
see above. Russia wants to control the oil pipeline to Europe, and the air routes the US uses to transport material from Germany to Afghanistan.

Israel plays into this only for those who stub their toes and curse Israel.

With all due respect RonL: Is this ethnic cleansing of Of Ossetia and the cleansing of Serbs from Croatia and Kosovo practice for the coming ethnic cleansing of Israel and Palistine of all Arabs? Is it a diversion for the attack on Iran which most of expect in the next couple of months? Is it just an attempt to stir the pot to make McCain look like a safer bet in a turbulent world? Is it just an attempt to intimidate the Russians, so they won’t help the Iranians?

It may surprise you, but until last week, I had no idea that there were Israelis in Goergia. I know that there were Gruzniks and Tats (Georgian and Mountain Jews).

But this week you do have an idea, and you’ve taken Georgia’s side in this, despite the fact their assault on the first day killed 2,000 people.

However, my support for Georgia has nothing to do with Israel. Allowing Russia and Iran to completely control Caspian Oil is against US National interest.

*The facts belie your claims. 

*Russia did not start this. Georgia made a foolish decision to escalate a low level conflict on the eve of the olympics.

*Russia removed its military base from Georgia last year. 

Despite these facts you keep claiming that Russia is the vicious aggressors, and Georgia, who is responsible for killing 2,000 people, is the defenseless victim. 

I can only conclude that you’re blinded and consumed by Israeli partisanship.

Original Jack wrote:  “With all due respect Tobias: If the neocons, Israel, McCain and Rice are against Russia, then Russia must be in the right. “

Then I suggest you go join Al-Queda.

I don’t know… I think you can be against Rice, McCain, the Israelis, AND al-Qaida, all at the same time. Why not? They’re all evil jerks. Besides, don’t forget that Osama bin Laden used to work for Pappy Bush in Afghanistan against the USSR. He was a brave “freedom fighter” against the evil commies then.

Susan Menchey:

Right.  So why can’t Russia/Putin be wrong, as well as the neocons?