Kosovo on the Thames
The independence of Kosovo as a second Islamic state in the heart of Europe is now a fact. Serbia and Russia will continue to contest it, as they should, but their efforts will come to nothing, as they must. The battle for Kosovo was lost not in 2007 or in 1999, but a century ago, when the birthrate among its Albanian population vastly outpaced that of its Christians. The “revenge of the cradle” has ridden to power in Kosovo on the inexorable logic of one-man, one-vote. Or should we say, one womb, seven votes?
I will go into more depth on what the economist Milica Bookman calls the “demographic struggle for power”—in her tragically out-of-print book on the subject—in a further post this week, analyzing the latest failed attempt to explain the clash of civilizations between Mideast and West, Worlds at War. But for now, I’d like to reflect on what the fate of Kosovo portends for the homelands from which most of our ancestors came. It’s often reported, correctly, that Kosovo was “spiritual heartland” of Serbia. Since most of us aren’t Orthodox, and have no special love for the Serbs (in 1992 I wanted to sign up with the Croatian army to fight them, but cooler heads prevailed), it’s easy for us to skim lightly over this. So let me put in starker terms: For Serbia, read “England,” and for Kosovo read “London.” Or “Paris,” or “Rome.” So as you read the news accounts of Kosovo’s secession, and the reports of Kosovars dynamiting historic Serbian churches, imagine the demolition of Westminster Abbey, Notre Dame, or St. Peter’s Basilica. Imagine it all taking place quite democratically, by valid majority vote. You’ve just ridden a time machine through the next 60 years.
You may have wondered, as I did, why the U.S. bombed Yugoslavia in 1999—to halt the admittedly brutal behavior of Milosevic, whose attempt to hold onto Kosovo was futile, and 50 years too late. (On the day New Yorkers marched outside the U.N. against that illegal American intervention, I was probably the only Croat holding a sign.) Why did the Western powers so enthusiastically support the attack? In part, because it let them off the hook. The better sort of European remembered some real atrocities committed by ethnic Serbs (although they were far from the only ones) in Bosnia. But there was something more going on. The Europeans were enacting a little drama in their heads, acting out a mystery play intended to teach a lesson to their descendants: The lesson was “You will never act like this. You will not resist. When the Moslems come to power, you will go quietly and cooperate.” The French, the English, the Germans who endorsed America’s attack had admitted that the lights of their societies would soon go out, and they were quietly setting the timer.
It’s well-known, and widely (if quietly) lamented, that birthrates among Islamic immigrants and their children are vastly higher throughout Europe than those of native peoples. I’ve read at least one prediction that France will have an Islamic majority within 50 years—assuming the Moslems’ stern desert creed proves resistant to our contraceptive culture. (Hard to know who to root for there....) Indeed, Eurocrats openly advocate the mass importation of (still more!) young and fertile immigrants from the Middle East, the better to fund the cozy retirements which the dying peoples of Europe voted themselves after World War II. It’s hard to imagine a more perverted scheme for keeping oneself in office, than to sell your motherland into the seraglio, to auction it off piece by piece to an intolerant, alien civilization. It’s as if members of the Byzantine government in the 15th century were to gradually dismantle the walls protecting the city, to use the stones for Roman baths. As Burke once said, “People will not look forward to posterity who never look backward to their ancestors.”
Perhaps the lesson of this sellout is rather simple (and applicable to America): Guess what, Mr. Chamber of Commerce? Immigrants aren’t robots whom we can program to do our grunt-work and then unplug, but human beings with human rights and the prerogative to organize politically and make demands. Cheap Labor Isn’t Cheap.
P.S. Just to forestall the wave of comments by people complaining about my comparison (not equation) of Mexicans and Moslems: Of COURSE there’s a stark difference between Islamic invaders and a people whose Faith descends from the Apostles (Sant Iago anyone? Here he is trampling a Moor.) But there’s also a difference between Anglo-American civilization and that of Mexico. Each has a right to pursue its own existence, and maintain its identify. Just as we should not be meddling in their country, supporting Masonic regimes which rape the Indians and persecute the Church, so they should not be flooding our country with their nationals in pursuit of reconquista. UPDATE: Andrew Cusack’s extraordinary blog has an illustrated report on Kosovar atrocities against Christians. Check it out here.
Comments
John,
as one croat to another: me think that you overuse the Takimag. I would be more than pleased if you allow more time between your posts.
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<<[There is] a difference between Anglo-American civilization and that of Mexico. Each has a right to pursue its own existence, and maintain its identify. Just as we should not be meddling in their country, supporting Masonic regimes which rape the Indians and persecute the Church, so they should not be flooding our country with their nationals in pursuit of reconquista.>>
I agree with you 100%, despite what you may have presumed!
However, Mexico doesn’t “flood” the USofA for the pursuit of la reconquista, but because the people setting policy in Mexico (it’s “government”, if you can call it that) can’t stand the more-Mestizo-than-they. The USofA is the perfect pressure valve for the Mexican Masons you mention; and the American Masons are more than willing to take the excess, “cheap” labour.
I’ve always said: if you don’t want Mexican immigrants in America, support the Catholic Church, the Knights of Columbus, and persecute Freemasonry.
Railing against Pablo, the illegal immigrant, does no good. Strike at the root of the problem: the corruption of Mexico, aided and abetted by the USofA. Believe you me, Mexicans don’t come to America for it’s social welfare or “culture”.
As for Kosovo: yes, the (formally) Christian “West” has been committing demographic suicide for quite a while. I’ll be glad when the last of the “DINKs” and feminists die off. The only bad part is that the rest of us decent folk will be surrounded by Mohammedans. Oh well.
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As a Scot, one does one’s best to avoid intra-Slavic disputes; but intersting as so many Takimag posts tend to be, it is Mr. Zmirak’s insight & prose that draw me to it daily. So while I am not prepared to insist he ignore his fiancé, nor the glories of Rome, the more posts he writes, the happier Taki’s Scot readership will prove (& its less savage readership too I expect).
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Mr. BONEtic,
Kindly bugger off!
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Mr. Zmirak,
so glad you did not join the Croat Army to fight the Serbs in ‘92. You might have served under Agim Ceku, the chief of Croat Artillery at the time, responsible for murder of Serb civilians in Krajina, carried out by Croat forces.
Ceku was promoted by the Croat president, Franjo Tudjman, following the Medak Pocket operation, where he was the commanding officer, and further promoted after Operation Storm, which drove 200,000 Serbs from Krajina and left 2,000 dead, mostly elderly civilians who did not want to leave their homes.
Ceku went on to become the head of the Kosovo Albanian terrorist group KLA, and the prime minister of Kosovo. So much for Croat neutrality in creating ‘the second Islamic state in Europe’!
Tvrtko the 23rd
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JZ, well done as usual.
Just yesterday I proffered the same analogy to some Australian friends whose Government has STUPIDLY followed the USA line and recognised Kosovo. I used the analogy of London and Westminster Abbey.
And then last night on (Australia’s) ABC tv, I saw and heard Australia’s former Minister of Foreign Affairs, the ultimate academic hack armchair-theorist, mumbling prepackaged phrases about how Kosovan independence was necessary and inevitable, and I almost threw a bottle of lager to smash the TV screen until my ladyfriend persuaded me not to - she told me, “JOHN, it’s not worth it, DON’T WASTE THE BEER!” ;-)
Anyway. JZ, you’re bang-on correct about this. Kosovo for the Serbs is analagous to Westminster Abbey for the English, or maybe you could have suggested Valley Forge for Americans. I think the closest American analogue of Kosovo is Valley Forge.
And now - and yes I’ve been following China’s reaction, and you know I have close links with China - now China is infuriated and becoming even more paranoid, because now the Chinese government and the PLA are thinking, “Well if the Americans recognise Kosovo’s independence in defiance of the sensitivities of Serbia’s main ally, the Russians who have the ability to nuke the entire world, then the Americans might be even MORE casual and MORE foolhardy about
recognising a Taiwan declaration of independence - so, then, maybe we (China) should just launch a “pre-emptive strike” upon Taiwan, just to get it over with while we still have some advantage.”
For America to recognise Kosovo would be the second most stupid mistake America has ever made, with the entire Cold War being the worst mistake, and the War of 1812 ranking in third place.
(Very funny song by a comical Canadian band, about the War of 1812, here - just to offer some comic relief):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGKwgmyEAJs
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Tvrtko you bogomil heretic.
I recommend ‘Before the Rain’ [Prije Dozd] a wonderful Macedonian film about Slavs, Albanians, etc.
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To All: While I supported and still support Croatian independence in the context of a Greater-Serbian Yugoslavia, I acknowledge much that is shameful in what the Croatian government did in around 1996. Nor did we make a very good debut in 1941.... All the more reason why my ancestral patriotic feelings center entirely around the great Catholic empire of which we were once a part, rather than the sometimes bloody-minded republic we became.
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John, I invite you to heal your schismatic soul by exploring the Orthodox faith in its entirety.
As for Trtvko - bravo!
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My membership in the League of the South, my support of the breakup on big nation-states into a myriad of Venices and Switzerlands, my opposition to Nationalism and racialism, is well known. About Kosovo and Albania I confess ignorance. Nor am I able to get the information that I need, given that in Nationalist conflicts, if not in all wars, the truth is usually the first casualty.
So help me out, folks:
1. What percentage of Albanians and Kososvars attend Friday Mosque services?
2. Do the spires of Minarets dot the cityscapes? Do Muezzins call 5 times a day to prayer? What percentage of the population of Albanian and Kosovo practice the Salat?
3. Is alcohol sold in these countries? What is the per capita retail sale?
4. Is pork raised and sold in these countries? What is the per capita retail sale?
5. May a man have 4 wives in these countries?
6. What percentage of the women are veiled in these countries?
7. Is Sharia observed in these countries? Are adulterers stoned? The hands of thieves cut off?
8. What percentage of the population in these countries can read the Islamic sacred texts in their original language?
9. What percentage of the male population in these countries is circumcised?
10. What, according to reliable opinion polls, is the percentage of the population in these countries that support Osama, Sept 11, jihad? Or are members of al-Qaeda?
11. What percentage of the population in these countries have observed the Hajj? Or have made the pilgrimage to Mecca whatsoever?
12. What percentage of the population in these countries confess the Shahadah as their principle and foundation?
13. What percentage of the population in these countries are faithful practitioners of the Zakat?
14. What percentage of the population in these countries practice the Sawm during Ramadan?
15. What percentage of the population in these countries are Shia? Sunni?
I ask responders to cite their sources; or if their evidence in anecdotal or just personal ad oculos, to say so.
Just trying to do my homework.
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“ France will have an Islamic majority within 50 years—”
20 years ago the nation had an article, available online I believed, called “in the heart of Le Pen country” which made the same claim about what would happen in 20 years. has it happened? I don’t think so.
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In the Heart of Le Pen Country: Letter From Europe
Daniel Singer
Marseilles, France
...
As last week’s national elections approached, all the main leaders of Le Pen’s xenophobic National Front swooped over the region, the department of Bouches-du-Rhône, like vultures in search of parliamentary seats. Le Pen himself picked the eighth district of Marseilles (where in April he had polled nearly 30 percent). But attention is already being focused beyond the current election, toward the Ides of March, the likely date of next year’s poll for the Town Hall. Can a neofascist become the mayor of France’s second city? The very fact that the question can be raised requires a lot of explanation.
The Thug and the Politician. If you want to see a folkloric image of the danger, take the left side of the Old Harbor, move beyond the restaurants whose enterprising owners solicit you to taste their bouillabaisse, to the Bar des Yachts. You can’t miss it: Posters of the leader are plastered all over with the now-obsolete stickers “Le Pen--president.” On the left-hand side there is a symptomatic kitsch painting: A priest with a holy cross is exorcising a devil painted in red. So that the point should not be missed, the devil has 1789--the date of the French Revolution--scribbled on his back. The bar’s owner, Dedé (short for Andrew), a man well known for his exploits with fists or gun, is well in line with the painting: “It’s the Alamo here. Only instead of being on the defensive, we shall attack.” Then, changing periods and metaphors: “Charles Martel [who stopped the Arabs near Poitiers in the seventh century] -that’s kid stuff. It’s from here that the great anti-Islamic crusade will start..” The customers, who look like a bunch of aggressive salesmen, nod approvingly. If the National Front attracted only such reactionaries, nostalgic for the King, Pétain and French Algeria, the threat would not be too great.
To measure its seriousness I have to go to the other side of the Old Harbor, beyond the seventeenth-century Town Hall, where the Socialists are still the masters, to a ware- house that had been turned into offices and plastered with portraits of Le Pen with or without a tie. There I meet the local leader of the National Front. Sixtyish and paunchy, Pascal Arrighi is one of the reactionary notables who rallied to Le Pen. A former high-level public servant, he is a clever politician and a smooth talker. Why does his party do well in this area? In addition to economic circumstances, there are two basic reasons -immigration and “its daughter, in- security.” Marseilles, he claims, is a hospitable city, but the Arabs are just too much. When I venture that the arguments used to explain their otherness-different race, different religion, they don’t mix or intermarry- had been advanced to oppose Jews before the war, he weighs me up suspiciously then decides to play it safe: No, the Jews had “the gift of adaptation and the will to integrate,” whereas the Arabs are unbearable. He takes me into his confidence: “A cousin of mine, a doctor, her name was not in the telephone book, but they found it to shout obscenities because she had refused to sign phony certificates for social security. They just get on everybody’s nerves.”
When he talks of local politics, the man can be quite witty. I asked him why he was so sure that candidates of the respectable right, the followers of Jacques Chirac and Raymond Barre, would stand down for National Front men and vice versa, whatever the official orders from Paris. Because they don’t want to commit political suicide, he replied: “On the fourth floor, faced with the choice between the window and the staircase, you obviously can jump, but....” Dedé is there for Arab-bashing and Arrighi for vote-catching--the Front, after all, is doing well here in both posh and popular districts--but when it comes to fundamentals their message is the same. It panders to the lowest prejudices and plays on the deepest fears, seeking the ultimate root of all evil in the outsider, the alien, in this case the Arab.
Mohammed the Scapegoat. Next to the names of National Front candidates on the billboards there are small posters. With a minaret in the background and a quotation: “In 20 years’ time, it is sure, France will be an Islamic republic.” It is not worth checking whether the Hezbollah leader to whom this is attributed really did make such an absurd forecast. All foreigners combined account for less than 7 percent of the French population, a proportion that has remained roughly stable for the past dozen years, and immigrants from North Africa represent 2.6 percent. Besides, it is estimated that only pome 5 percent of the potentially Islamic population are practicing Moslems. But to give credence to such forecasts is no more irrational than the often-heard suggestion that if you want a job, a subsidized flat or a place in a kindergarten, you had better be called “Ben-something” than Dupont. This kind of whispering campaign is universal; only here it is unusually successful. Is it because foreigners are so much more numerous here in Marseilles? Not really, since according to the 1982 census, they number 80,752--or 9.3 percent of the population; immigrants from North Africa, estimated at 56,784, account for 6.5 percent of the total. Admittedly, they are more visible, since the immigrant ghetto lies in the center of the city. The district stretching between the Canebière and the railway station with its monumental staircase, full of narrow streets and shady hotels, has always been a shelter for the poor of the planet. By now it has expanded and looks like a North African casbah. Arabs are thus to be found not only on the outskirts in the most overcrowded and derelict housing projects but also in the very hem of the town. On top of it all, there is the population afloat. The port of a Marseilles is the main transit place and provisional stop for North Africans entering or leaving France.
...
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John, no hard feelings.I feel the real question is what will the Vatican do?
It was understandable when they spearheaded the recogniztion of Slo and Croatia, together with Austria and Germany.
In the case of Bosnia, their behavior was already questionable.
However, if the Vatican recognizes Kosovo, I, for one, will be personally disappointed. If this happens, we should all stop talking about Christian understanding and ecumenism.
ps
It’s difficult to talk of a ‘Greater-Serbian Yugoslavia’ when the Croat Communist dictator Tito ruled Yugoslavia for 40 years.
He split the Serbian republic into three parts - two autonomous provinces given to national minorites - Kosovo (Albanian) being one of them.
Also, during the old Kingodm of Yugoslavia, which lasted between the two world wars, Croats were awarded the semi-indepent Croat Banovina. If this was a greater Serbian project, it sure was a self-undermining one. I will remind you that Croats, allies of the Central powers, did not have to pay reparations after WWI, because they were admitted into the newly created Yugoslavia.
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John, like it or not, poorly educated, unskilled
Muslims are very much like poorly educated, unskilled
Mexicans.
Their religion is more a question of superstition than
theology - which requires more study than they can afford.
They are centered in their family far more than in
any other isntitution, they tend towards a cult of honor
and vendetta, and their sexual mores are very much
alike.
It is only when you get towards a higher educational
level that you can draw theological distinctions.
The main reason why they are objectionable to their
neighbors is not because of their religion but because
they have not acquired yet middle class values. They tend
to be noisier and dirtier than the established populations
and they have an irritating habit of assuming that
any woman who smiles politely to them is making sexual
advances and is so fair game.
Once they shed those annoying habits then you can start
arguing religion.
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the only thing I know about Albania is what I’ve read in Ismail Kadare’s novels, which mainly focuses on the Hoxha regime
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I have just read on ZENITH that the Ravenna Document is considered a breakthrough in Catholic/Orthodox relations. I have no way of knowing if this is true. I do believe that this is an important moment in these relations. We have a duty to see that the Serbian/Albanian issue doesn’t sidetrack these development in church relations. Our comments thus should be measured and guarded. We want reconciliation. Ditto the Holy See and the SSPX.
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The Vatican will have a tough time on the Kosovo issue. It is wedded, pretty thoroughly, to modern democratic notions of self-determination, and historically sympathetic to secessions (because of its teaching of subsidiarity). On the other hand, the Russian state is helping ecumenical relations, which are MUCH more important than politics. There is no doubt a battle in the curia even now between those who want above all to keep good relations with the NATO bloc, and those who care more about the principle of Christian unity. Give the Holy See credit--it was one of the few powers to denounce the FIRST Gulf War as well as the second. And Pope Benedict is undeceived about Islamic intentions in Europe. Expect a guarded response that makes no one happy, but also makes no enemies. Most of the time, the Vatican thinks in centuries.
That said, this week I’m going to go to the Garibaldi monument on the Janiculum and snicker.
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Trvtko, you bogomil heretic!
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Sid - The Ravenna Document is not a breakthrough. It simply restates what the Orthodox Church has always known, and which most Catholics do not. Prior to the schismatic actions of the Bishop of Rome, the Bishops of the other 4 Holy Sees recognized him as first among equals. This conferred no special powers that the other sees did not have. It is only in Catholic spin that it appears that the document recognized the Pope as the vicar of Christ on Earth, which the Orthodox never have, and never will.
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Stari momak (bosanski djed?)
And here I thought I was an Orthodox heretic!
On a serious note, I second Mr. Zmirak’s and Mr. Cundiff’s appeals to Christian understanding, and cheer on the side in the curia which does not need centuries to see they should support Christians over Muslims.
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While the Religious Partisans are mixing it up in the Town Square and drawing all attention, the real work of this sideshow is happening behind the scenes.......natural resources...and there are many in Kosovo....are being inventoried and parceled out to the highest bidders in an atmosphere freed from earlier structures. Prices are run up and money is made by the fistful. The unofficial economies of the War Machine are always benefited in these circumstances. Compliant oligarchies are built and vital chains of baksheesh are primed.
This swell scam works consistently and when the place has been properly plundered, the native rustics retain their beloved faiths ....useful in dulling the pain that accompanies the realization that you have just been mugged by the people who were sent to help you.
Democracy for the Soft-Palmed Crusaders of the Lapsed-Republic is just another way to say “Market Consolidation”. If it can be done in such a way as to attend it with the War Machine, everybody is a winner.
When one’s economy is 20% military expenditure and rising, and one’s currency is flopping about the deck like a gasping fish, one can be sure that these sorts of wonderful “Democratizations” will be happening with increasing regularity. It would be easier to pull off if we didn’t have to waste so much time and finance this drag on income known as “participatory democracy” but no pain, no gain. Government is just one of those pesky external costs but it is great for getting one’s hands into the citizens pockets .
After all, it was Secretary Albright who hit the nail on the head: “Whats the use of having this powerful military if you’re not going to use it?”
Whats the use of having this grand bureaucracy if we’re not going to employ it around the world?
In Belligerence We Trust
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any computer geniuses here know of a device where I can somehow sift through the yammering about catholicism on this site?
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Yes, Lester. It’s quite simple. It’s known as a “mouse.” Use your “mouse” to avoid clicking on those over my byline. That should serve nicely.
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It simply restates what the Orthodox Church has always known, and which most Catholics do not. Prior to the schismatic actions of the Bishop of Rome, the Bishops of the other 4 Holy Sees recognized him as first among equals. This conferred no special powers that the other sees did not have. It is only in Catholic spin that it appears that the document recognized the Pope as the vicar of Christ on Earth, which the Orthodox never have, and never will.
It is true that because of the failure of adult catechetics that most Catholics do not know that Papal Primacy has always been taught and practiced in the Church. The Pentarchy was a late development—when Constantine moved his seat of government to Byzantium, that city was merely a suffragan of Heraclea.
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Guess what, Mr. Chamber of Commerce? Immigrants arent robots whom we can program to do our grunt-work and then unplug, but human beings with human rights and the prerogative to organize politically and make demands. Cheap Labor Isnt Cheap
Fine and dandy, as long as you understand that mass immigration isn’t an economic policy, it is ideological. Business internationalism follows social and political internationalism, not vice versa, and even today the economic impact of immigrants is minor. It is a policy of internationalism, anti-nationalism, and egalitarianism that long ago descended into a genocidal hatred of whites, and if it didn’t fit the plans of the racist left it would be ended tomorrow regardless of what businessmen wanted. Business is just a whipping boy for the real criminals in this matter.
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Sid Cundiff = liar & fraud
“My membership in the League of the South, my support of the breakup on big nation-states into a myriad of Venices and Switzerlands, my opposition to Nationalism and racialism, is well known.”
League of the South is a nationalist organization. Duh.
“About Kosovo and Albania I confess ignorance.”
Liar.
Let’s examine the fraudulent Sid Cundiff’s Islamic vocabulary:
Muezzins
Salat
Hajj
Shahadah
Sawm
Ask yourself, Dear Reader, how many people affiliated with the League of the South and who otherwise feel kinship with Southerners would ever use terminology like the above.
The liar Cundiff is the clumsiest propagandist on the internet. He is either a neocon a la Dan Pipes or a full-blown Marxist working for the Southern Poverty Law Center. The attacks on this blog are part of a wider disinformation campaign throughout the media.
Daniel Pipes: We must accept Islam and “work” with moderates.
Mark Steyn: Islamization of the West is a foregone conclusion. What a shame.
Bernard Lewis: Islamization of the West is a foregone conclusion. The best we can do is to become obedient infidels and hope for the best.
Melanie Phillips: Islam is awful. But let’s do nothing to remove it from our midst.
Sid Cundiff/SPLC: Kosovo is a moderate Islamic state. There is no threat to Christian Europe.
Dear Reader, do you see a pattern here? Wake up. This is a psychological technique. It’s a form of mass hypnosis. These “intellectuals” are preparing you mentally for surrender to Islam. These people despise Christianity and are ecstatic at the thought of Islam invading Europe - and soon America. Just as their ancestors laid the groundwork for the Islamic invasion of Christian Spain, so do they lay the groundwork today.
Divide & conquer, divide & conquer, divide & conquer.
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In response to Mr Thatchery,
I sometimes concur, other times disagree with Mr Cundiff.
He’s an anti-nationalist supporter of the League of the South; yes, that is contradictory. He, for some reason, doesn’t see it that way, but it is. Personally, as a supporter of an independent Appalachia, it is obvious that Mr Cundiff is in contradiction; unless, of course, a plank in the platform of the League of the South is to allow for further secession (which it may, but I doubt it).
<<Let’s examine the fraudulent Sid Cundiff’s Islamic vocabulary:>>
I saw Mr Cundiff’s point, that is why I didn’t respond. He was putting forth rhetorical questions. He, I, and anyone else that has studied the situation know that Kosovo is as practicing Mohammedan as any other place overwhelmingly influenced by the Ottoman Turks; that being not Muhammadan at all - not even Turkey itself is all that Muhammadan.
However, that doesn’t preclude Kosovo from being, nominally, a Mohammedan state, which it is. Kosovo is inspired by it’s Muhammdanism, it is what separates themselves from their neighbors; however, it is not the Muhammadanism of Saudi Arabia or Iran with which they identify; Muhammadanism in Kosovo is ethnic/national, just like my own personal faith, The One True Faith of Catholicism, is, in many ways, ethnic and national in Northern Ireland.
Irish terrorists may claim to be Catholic, but that doesn’t make them so.
Kosovo claims Muhammadanism, but it’s true belief is in ethnicism and nationalism.
THAT is why Mr Cundiff should oppose “Kosovo”.
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“I’ve read at least one prediction that France will
have an Islamic majority within 50 years—assuming the
Moslems’ stern desert creed proves resistant
to our contraceptive culture.
(Hard to know who to root for there....)”
I’m at a loss of words seeing such hatred.
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john zmirak- how about sticking to the topic and advising your mental patient follwoers to do the same?
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Les, first learn to spell. Then learn to think. Then learn some manners. Then you can come back and sit with the grown-ups.
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“Mr. Thatchery” (probably another of the fake names our one or two Browns use)-- aside from not knowing the difference between Lokalpatriotismus and Whig mega-statist Nationalism (a difference the League knows)-- has his facts wrong. I have made it known repeatedly that rather than working for the SPLC, I am hired agent provocateur for the Mayor of the Munchkins.
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bad manners is self indulgently side tracking any and all conversations to the topic of the pope, not pointing this out.
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I might know a bit about Islam. I know nothing of its practice in Albania or Kosovo. Just as I know nothing of the percentage of Serbs who attend church each Sunday. I had hoped for enlightenment. Not that the Browns have any light at all.
On Ulster I’m a bit more informed, thanks to my meeting an Irish physician in Rome last Jan 2007. From the 60s on, the Marxist/Socialist/Social Democrat press, for years the only press in the US of A, call the Ulster conflict a “sectarian/religious” conflict, said deliberately and mendaciously to undermine religion. The Ulster conflict was nothing of the sort. It was a Nationalist conflict. The IRA in the 60s and 70s had two factions, one Marxist (remember Bernadette Devlin, who never went to church?), the other Ultra-Nationalist. The former died out in the 70s, and the latter ran the show until last Spring. I thank that Irish physician.
Well, I don’t intend to be deceived this time about Kosovo. That’s why I asked my questions. Is the conflict “sectarian” or Nationalist? I still await facts that prove the matter.
P.S. the Wiki (an unreliable source) says the KLA started out as a Marxist bunch. Are they still, or are they Ultra-Nationalist.
Of course, all Nationalists soon become radical-, arch- ultra- and extremist-. Naziism is the necessary telos of all Nationalism.
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Sid Cundiff is Andrew Capp.
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no offense meant towards catholics btw
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<<Sid Cundiff is Andrew Capp>>
Why do people keep insisting this?
It is rather odd.
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Mr Cundiff,
The political or nationalistic ideology of the KLA is really no longer “in play” since Kosovo is, and has been, “liberated”. What the KLA is today, and has been for quite a while, is a criminal gang. Just like the IRA.
Albania is probably 60-70% atheist. Nationalism, not sectarianism, dominates the Albanian mind. One is Albanian first, then Mohammedan/Catholic/Orthodox/Atheist. The “liberation” of Kosovo was driven entirely by nationalist forces from the outside, but internally it was more Mohammedan - Yugoslavia was distinctly more religious than Albania; the Albanians in Kosovo picked up their Mohammedanism and flew it proudly.
In the end, Albania could get bit by an independent Kosovo. Albania, at some point in the future, could be brought down by a sectarian civil war, IF (and this is a HUGE “if") Albanians begin to regard themselves as Catholics or Mohammedans or Orthodox first and as Albanians second.
However, what is more likely, is that Kosovo’s nascent re-emerging Mohammedanism will be stymied by Albania’s entrenched secularism. What you will see is a fight between the secular West (which includes Albania itself) against the religious Mohammedans for the “soul” of Kosovo.
What I believe is happening here, is that the “West” thinks they can control Kosovo better than Serbia. The “West” believes it can squash Kosovo’s Mohammedanism better with it’s brand of secularism than Serbia could have with it’s brand of Eastern Orthodoxy. And the “West” has a point. Serbia would have continued to “push” the Mohammedan Kosovars, and they would have continued to “push back”, becoming more Mohammedan with every push.
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I suppose one could fuss that Mr. Capp didn’t cite sources. But at least he bothered to answer some of my questions. So I thank him.
Religion often plays a decided 2nd fiddle to Nationalism. When an ethnos is oppressed, the oppressed wear their religion as a sign of ethnic identity. When no longer oppressed, they abandoned their religion. E.g the secularization of Ireland, Quebec, the Netherlands, Belgium, etc. If this thesis be correct, and if Mr. Capp’s remarks about Kosovar religiosity be correct, then the best way to kill that religiosity would be to leave the Kosovars alone. (note the subjunctives in the previous sentence).
Another thought. The Catholic Faith emerged in the Roman world, and that world, in the first 5 centuries a.D., among its elites was largely atheist, sceptical, and materialist. The dominant ideologies—Stoicism, Epicurianism, Cynicism, and Atomicism were materialist philosophies, and non-theist. Neo-Platonism also was largely non-theist. True, the official state paganism existed, but by the 1st C a.D.it was vestigial and pro forma. At the same time, among the middle and lower classes, the mystery religions and other crazed cults abounded.
Materialist, Atheist, crazy cults—sounds like our own world. Which means the current condition of the “West” is ripe for takeover by a serious religion. Islam feeds on decadent societies. Take away the decadence, and you take away Islam. Also, my thesis would suggest that rather than despairing, The Catholic Faith might see the current age as an opportunity.
A further thought: The best protection against both Erastianism and Nationalism (the odious “national churches) is a strong papacy.
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<<I suppose one could fuss that Mr. Capp didn’t cite sources.>>
Well, my sources include some Albanian Catholics I knew in Atlanta, Georgia, as well as what I have gleaned from various write-ups on the “internets”.
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We want reconciliation. Ditto the Holy See and the SSPX.
We want The Bride to wear Estee Lauder’s Spring Signature Collection Scent - Chipotle Peppers in Adobo Sauce Essence - but, simply desiring it will not make it happen.
There’s a better chance Playboy will choose Alice Rivlin as their next Centerfold.
There’s a better chance Ingrid Newkirk will be crowned the next Champion at the Memphis in May Barbecue contest.
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@ Sid Cundiff:
OK, I’ll try to answer your questions so you can stop feeling ignored. Sources: I have spent time in the area. I wouldn’t know where to look for official data; I’m an engineer, not a social scientist.
1. What percentage of Albanians and Kososvars attend Friday Mosque services?
- Don’t know, but most likely a lot less than 50%.
2. Do the spires of Minarets dot the cityscapes? Do Muezzins call 5 times a day to prayer? What percentage of the population of Albanian and Kosovo practice the Salat?
- Yes to the first two, don’t know what Salat is.
3. Is alcohol sold in these countries? What is the per capita retail sale?
- Yes, don’t know sales figures.
4. Is pork raised and sold in these countries? What is the per capita retail sale?
Yes… per capita retail sale… c’mon, what do you think this is, Denmark?
5. May a man have 4 wives in these countries?
- Officially no, but enforcement is nill.
6. What percentage of the women are veiled in these countries?
- Veiled as in Saudi, I haven’t seen any; veiled as in Iran (long skirts, coats, hair covered), not uncommon but not universal.
7. Is Sharia observed in these countries? Are adulterers stoned? The hands of thieves cut off?
- No
8. What percentage of the population in these countries can read the Islamic sacred texts in their original language?
- I’d guess less than 1%, but then, what % of population in Afghanistan, Pakistan, or Bangladesh can read them in Arabic?
9. What percentage of the male population in these countries is circumcised?
- Practically everyone who is Moslem.
10. What, according to reliable opinion polls, is the percentage of the population in these countries that support Osama, Sept 11, jihad? Or are members of al-Qaeda?
- You’re assuming that Moslems will tell Westerners the truth when Westerners ask such questions, which is a huge stretch. Since you know so many Islamic terms, how about Taqqia?
- Support for Osama and Jihad, probably substantial if they have Moslem identity, as opposed to being just nominal. AQ members… c’mon, how many people in Afghanistan are AQ members?
11. What percentage of the population in these countries have observed the Hajj? Or have made the pilgrimage to Mecca whatsoever?
- Don’t know, would be shocked if it’s even 10%.
12. What percentage of the population in these countries confess the Shahadah as their principle and foundation?
- No idea what Shahadah is.
13. What percentage of the population in these countries are faithful practitioners of the Zakat?
- Was that the “no interest charged” doctrine? Don’t know.
14. What percentage of the population in these countries practice the Sawm during Ramadan?
- Don’t know what Sawm is.
15. What percentage of the population in these countries are Shia? Sunni?
- Traditionally all Suni (Turkish influence), but in the last 15 years some Shia (Iranian influence) and some Wahabbis (Saudi influence).
Now what are you going to do with all the knowledge?
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@ Sid Cundiff:
Forgot to mention on #7; adulterers are shot, not stoned, and thieves are probably shot too, if you steal from the wrong crowd.
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Mr. Dzugashvili has at least made an effort to answer my questions. Yet without citations to check his evidence, I cannot vouch for their reliability. Again remember that in such conflicts, the truth is the first casualty. Remember how the Germans were supposed to be eating Belgian children in 1914, per the British Press? I am also seeing some evidence that Mosque attendance in Kosovo and Albania is quite low, but I don’t have reliable information yet. So I guess I’m still in the Egyptian night on this question, as are other readers.
Mr. Dzugashvili is also honest in his confessed ignorance of Islam, honesty for which he is to be thanked. I am left to wonder whether his ignorance leaves him a scholarly guide to religiosity in the areas in question. All the same, he at least tried to give facts. I refer him and other to this link, for what its worth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Islam
I am not, by the way, an apologist for Albanian irredentism, any more than for Serbian.
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Sid, the mosque attendance rate of Kosovars is about as relevant as the Mass attendance rate of Catholics in Belfast. You needn’t heed your local muezzin in order to bomb a 14th century monastery… or to plant a car bomb in Omagh.
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Not the question, Mr. Z., and your argument is the fallacy of ignoratio elenchi, false analogy, and the “fallacy of the consequence”.
The question is whether the conflict is a religious one (as is being argued by you), or an Ultranationalist one. It was the latter, sir, in Ulster. If it is the latter in the Balkans, it ain’t worth, to coin a phrase, an American life or an American dollar. One indeed doesn’t need a muezin to be violent; an Ultranationalist will do.
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I shall, time permitting, write a general responce under Taki’s “Takimag Does Not Recognize ‘Kosovo’” to what I’ve read so far on this issue.
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Dear Sid,
Ultranationalism (sometimes of a religiously zealous sort) is hard to distinguish from orthodox Islam, and often survives its decline--and can provoke its resurgence. Robert Spencer more than demonstrates that in his works (see his excellent Web site, http://www.jihadwatch.org).
Regarding your final point on “an American life”, I’m certainly not arguing that the U.S. should intervene to PREVENT the Kosovars from seceding. Far be it from me to trust the U.S. government to intervene anywhere, for any reason, for the next… 50 or so years. Then we can give it a second look.
I am concerned about the future of Europe as American blacks are rightly concerned about the state of Africa. I feel a profound loyalty to the mother Continent, as all of us descended from it should. I also draw lessons from it for American policy concerning the connection between immigration, demography, and political power. Those are all too relevant here, I fear. The only way we Anglos got Tejas away from Mexico was by MOVING people there....
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@ Sid Cundiff
The dishonesty of your arguments is tiring. You said above, responding to John Z, that “The question is whether the conflict is a religious one (as is being argued by you) [you = John Z], or an Ultranationalist one.”
John Z never claimed that the conflict was religious. Read his original post again--the only reference to religion, in the context of the conflict, is John Z calling Kosovo an Islamic state in the first sentence. And since majority of the Albanian population in Kosovo is indeed Islamic, at least nominally, which even Albanians who post on this site admit, that was a valid statement which you didn’t disprove.
You are again hijacking a discussion by putting words in people’s mouths. That is a mark of dishonesty.
When I provided my best-guess answers to your 15 questions, I knew that was going to be an exercise in futility but did it anyway. You aren’t really going to prove anything relevant, even if you had perfectly reliable census data; you would only prove your point to yourself.
Let me put it to you differently: how often do you put your hand into the fire? I doubt very often. Did you analyze statistical data and read peer-reviewed scholarly journals in order to decide that putting your hand in the fire is not in the best interest of your hand? Do I hear yes?
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