Good retort.  As I’ve said many times already, there are many reasons to criticize Huckabee (e.g. the war, immigration, taxes, et al.).  But to criticize Huckabee for invoking Christianity, in a nation that historically has been a Christian nation, is straight from the Cultural Marxist bogeyman playbook.

He didn’t invoke Christianity he put up a cross like a halo around his head and then lied and said it wasn’t a cross.Donohue is totally right, he stood up for Mel Gibson even with the drunk driving and he has to stood up to the vicious antcathlic bigot abe Foxman.He’s an old man fighting the good fight,just like Ron Paul.Give it up Scott,Huck is an Elmer Gantry Using the Cross to fool the boobs.

Great piece, Scott.  Donahue is just wrong on this.  Huckabee’s ad was great--a Christmas greeting that mentioned what Christmas was, and didn’t truck to political correctness.  That it has become controversial is just another indicator of how far we have fallen:  http://www.vdare.com/pb/war_against_christmas_2001.htm

When I was young, we wished each other “Merry Christmas” as a matter of course.  Now, mentions of Christmas by public figures are analyzed for sinister motives.  We will know that the War against Christmas is over when Americans once again wish each other “Merry Christmas” as a matter of course, without anyone questioning their motives or claiming to be “offended.”

Don’t these pluralist fetishists realize they are doing the bidding of the leftist cultural Marxists? A Christianity that is silent and irrelevant in the “public square” is a Christianity that is less relevant in Church and at home. It must be this way. The different spheres, while an appropriate concept, can not be that rigorously separated.

Did you see Michael Novak’s disgusting NRO blog post announcing his support for the Saintly Romney and his disgust with the evil Huckabee?

Don’t these folks realize that all this feigned outrage reinforces the leftist idea that public expression of Christianity is wrong?

This is exactly what you people get for supporting utter garbage like “democratic elections”.

Democracy, whether it be Christian, is a fraud, it is unjust, and it is downright anti-Catholic, despite what people such as Mr Cundiff suppose.

No Catholic in his right mind could justify supporting Mitt Mormney, Rev Huckleberry, or even Ron “Martin Luther” Paul.

If I need any electing to be done, I’ll leave that to the College of Cardinals.

Tom,

I personally am offended when someone wishes me happy holidays or seasons greetings.  I celebrate Christmas.  I question the cross in Huckabee’s Christmas Greeting though. Wouldn’t a manger scene be more appropriate for a Christmas greeting? Or as someone mentioned on a previous thread, the three wise men from Iran.  Of course that would actually take the courage that Christ had in standing up to the establishment.  Something Huckabee is certainly unwilling to do.

‘A Christianity that is silent and irrelevant in the “public square” is a Christianity that is less relevant in Church and at home.’

A ‘Christianity’ peddled by warmongering slimeballs like Huckabee will only make Christianity more irrelevant. You will recall Bush II bragging about how God told him to invade Iraq. Now did that do Christianity any good?

to Scott:

While I agree that Ron Paul’s comments were in error and probably due to fatigue and baiting by the hosts, I think it would be counterproductive for him to apologize at this point.

Huckabee has alread given a return jab at the RP campaign, with his “paul is dead” Beatles refrence, and you could argue that he has “won this round”. If you go to Dridge, you see the quote has been taken off. The MSM, and most of the American public, has moved on. To bring it up now would simply be reopening a can of worms, and provide more fuel to the people working against him.

Don’t get me wrong: if asked about that quote, he should apologize frankly and plainly, mentioning his fatigue but taking the responsibility for his actions. However, to make an unprovoked apology would do more harm than good. Like it or not: this *is* a political race, and, no matter how hard we try not to, there are certain rules to play by.

Personally, I’m willing to move beyond the quote and look to the issues. Besides, Huckabee gives ME the creeps, too. Hopefully, Ron learned a valuable lesson about playing “the game” on someone else’s terms rather than your own. Ron has the message on his side. Leave the snark to the professionals.

M. Nucci,

I don’t see a cross, I see a bookshelf. 

I’m not saying Huckabee is my candidate--he’s not--but I thought that was a great ad.  And there’s nothing preventing the rest of the candidates from producing ads that wish everyone “Merry Christmas” as well.  The more, the merrier, in my book.

@Yehya:

“While I agree that Ron Paul’s comments were in error and probably due to fatigue and baiting by the hosts, I think it would be counterproductive for him to apologize at this point.”

I’ve never suggested that he should apologize, and, if my advice were asked, I’d advise him not to.  I would, however, advise him to think twice before he does something like that again, and to seek the advice of good men such as Red Phillips, who has suggested what the appropriate response to the FOX and Friends suggestion would have been.

@ M Nucci:
How am I supposed to know what you celebrate?  How am I supposed to know what the next random 100 customers I face will celebrate or not celebrate?  In an effort to avoid offending anyone maybe this holiday wishing thing should go titsup.  Would you be less offended if one were to wish you a merry ( full list of all holidays from all faiths that happen to occur between 12/20 and 1/1)? 
Can I wish you all a happy Yule?  Those wily pagans had a holiday every 45 days ( major holidays every 90; minor ones halfway between the majors) regular as the revolving of the Earth around the Sun.  Then the newcomers appropriated the old Holidays, changed the names, fudged the calendar dates a bit, and added shiny hubcaps.

@Tom
Rudy has one out today
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dR1fWZlE7AM
Ron has one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZPCWGtIupE
I don’t believe the rest of the ratpack have gotten around to wishing us happy whatevers for this year.

@Scott:
Agreed Ron has nothing to apologize for.
( expect for not throwing up last night when Glen Beck wanted to give him tongue ) But then Ron is a gentleman; polite to those who wish him ill and chivalrous to those who speak ill of him.
It is funny how so many today misconstrue politeness and peacefulness as weakness and pacifism.

to Scott:

Sorry for the confusion, and I do think Ron Paul has learned a thing or two about making pointless “jabs” at other candidates. I mean, what’s the point of having Lew Rockwell call Huckabee a fascist if Paul starts doing it?

Either way, I’m still happy that we’re able to have a reasoned debate on the issue. Goes to my well worn theory that the Ron Paul Revolution is single-handedly making the political debate in this country that much smarter.

Pretty good week for Ron Paul.Record breaking fundraiser,great profile on PBS,good interview with slimy Glen Beck,Meet The Press this Sunday,and getting Huck exposed as the phony he is, with a couple of off handed comments.Pretty good for a 72 year old political maverick who just wanted a final educational and protest campaign.
Scott for someone who printed Sam Francis all those years, I think you are being hypocritical, what would an old agnostic like Sam say about Huck.
Andrew Capp you are still a troll Ron Paul, although a baptist, quotes St Augustine on just war and uses the Catholic Doctrine of subsidiarity in his social program.

C K:

Don’t be absurd.  96% of Americans celebrate Christmas, including a fair number of non-Christians.  The hordes of shoppers who mysteriously appear between Thanksgiving and Christmas aren’t there for Divali or the Winter Solstice.  Any retailer can have its employees wish customers “Merry Christmas” secure in the knowledge that the overwhelming majority of people receiving the greeting will be celebrating Christmas.  At the very least, retailers ought to acknowledge by name the holiday to which they owe their good fortune.

@Tom,

If it’s a shelf then fair enough.  If it is a cross then he has to be able to back it up with something other than we have to finish the job in Iraq.

@CK,

If you don’t know that I celebrate Christmas then don’t wish me happy holidays because I take that as a secular avoidance of giving Christ his due.  The whole holidays thing is an insult created by people who want to profit on Christmas but secretly hate Christians.

@Jack:

“Scott for someone who printed Sam Francis all those years, I think you are being hypocritical, what would an old agnostic like Sam say about Huck.”

OK--now, I know you’re just yanking my chain, right?  Because, one last time, what I have said in praise of Huckabee?  Having known Sam (and not simply printed him), I can say with some certainty that he and I would pretty much agree on Huckabee.  And on Ron Paul.

And on the mistake that Ron Paul made yesterday.  Sam was not a man to throw the word “fascist” around, nor was he a man who would ever advise a presidential candidate to do anything that would alienate Christians.

@Tom,

I like your response to CK much better than mine.  Very well put.  If someone wants to celebrate solstice then they are welcome to correct me when I wish them Merry Christmas and we can get into a friendly discussion regarding how man is saved by the sun and wether there are the equivalent of solar saints, etc.

Scott, one thing you have to agree on is that Ron Paul’s campaign is what many consider one mistake after another given his positions.  His appeal is that he is genuine.  For what it is worth I agree that it was a mistake but it is an unfair and loaded question where the only right answer would have been to laughinly say no way am I touching that you’re on your own,(laughter), and then leave it at that.  So what Ron should take from this is be ready to give no answer at all, or talk about the Ron Paul blimp, or the next money bomb in other words use the person trying to trap you for free advertising.

I see that “CK” has fallen for the neopagan
propaganda that has been bandied about for a hundred
or so years.

CK, your understanding of “pagan holidays” is an
invention of a few bored (and boring) Englishmen of the
19th century.  You seem quite foolish in repeating
such propaganda.

Another thing Scott shame on you for calling Mr. Donohue a neocon and Romney supporter. You don’t know what his political beliefs are.Your hero the great christian Huckabee has publicly stated he won’t support Paul, but will support Rudy and Huck’s foreign policy is very neocon just like most of his evangelical backers.

@Tom
So who are the 4% that don’t?  I agree that since the Christmas season has become a national holiday most American’s enjoy the time off and the gifting and regifting and the gluttony, I expect most biannual Christians ( Yule and Oestra ) even make a couple of hours available to go and contemplate the infinite mercies and the Beatitudes. 
Actually Tom they are there for the winter solstice.  The early and wily Christians appropriated that holiday from the pagans.  WInter solstice is the day when the days start to grow longer, when the Gods were reborn ( or born depends on which pagan one was).

@Mr Nucci
I live in a secular world. I try to be polite and respectful of folks but I don’t read minds and I don’t know by appearance if one is a Catholic or a Jew or a Moslem or a Baptist, or an Odinist.  I don’t know if their religion is the predominate thing in their lives or if their family is or their political party is or their Church is or their bowling league is.  So my choices appear to be: Wish Merry Christmas and exclude many, Wish Happy Holidays and offend some, not say a damn thing and offend all.  “Greedy secularist couldn’t be bothered to even wish me happy holidays but was willing to sell me some chinese import crap to put under my kwanza decorations.”
As for the profit motive in Christmas I think you might enjoy Mr Piatak’s answer to me re the millions of shoppers coming out to celebrate Yule.
As they say down south “Happy Yule yeh awl”

@ Andy
WHich ones?  Do you have a reference book or citation that I could go to to update my knowledge?  A web site even or a google link?

Martin, you are conflating issues. That far too many Christians have supported an aggressive and immoral war goes without saying. But why on earth, as a Christian, would I get in bed with the enemies of Christianity? The same PC goons who howled because some racists support Paul and who howl anti-Semitism because he opposes foreign aid for Israel are the same people who get upset because Huckabee mentions Jesus? Gasp! The horror! Can you not see how all this is related?

@Jack:

“Another thing Scott shame on you for calling Mr. Donohue a neocon and Romney supporter. You don’t know what his political beliefs are.Your hero the great christian Huckabee has publicly stated he won’t support Paul, but will support Rudy and Huck’s foreign policy is very neocon just like most of his evangelical backers.”

Anyone who has followed Bill Donohue knows that he’s a neocon, and I clearly stated that I was guessing that he will support Romney.

But Jack, you’re clearly just arguing for the sake of argument, since you keep lying about who I’m supporting.  So fire away; write the most scurrilous lies you can think of.  I’m done responding to you.

Democracy, whether it be Christian, is a fraud, it is unjust, and it is downright anti-Catholic, despite what people such as Mr Cundiff suppose.

Here are just two off the top of my head…

St. Robert Bellarmine, Dr. of the Church and champion of Democracy and voting.

http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=6607

The Rule of Saint Benedict. They voted for the Abbott.

St. Benedict ordained (Rule, lxiv) that the Abbot should be chosen “by the general consent of the whole community, or of a small part of the community, provided its choice were made with greater wisdom and discretion.” The bishop of the diocese, the Abbots and Christian men of the neighbourhood were called upon to oppose the election of an unworthy man. Every religious house professing his Rule adopted the method prescribed by the great monastic legislator, and in the course of time the right of the monks to elect their own Abbot came to be generally recognized, particularly so when it had been solemnly confirmed by the canons of the Church

Have a Blessed Advent, brother

Well all I’m saying is that while you have politicos like Bush and Huckabee associating their religion with imbecilic wars, torture, and numerous other dubious policies, these ‘Christians’ will do far more damage to their religion than will the so-called cultural Marxists. I can understand that some people think having religion involved with politics might improve politics, but when you look at the likes of Bush, the evidence suggests politics has merely degraded religion. Like I’ve said before, Huckabee can wear his religion on his sleeves all he likes if he desires it. There should not be any law against it.  But if he becomes president, inevitably makes an ass of himself and plunges the country into more ruin, don’t be too surprised if people start associating his failures with his religious zeal. People have definitely started to do this with Bush, and not just those evil ‘cultural Marxists’.

C K,

The “Christmas is really the solstice” argument doesn’t cut it.  As I wrote for VDARE back in 2002,

One correspondent informed me that “Actually, December 25th is the birthday of Mithras” and that “December 25th is Saturnalia.” Although profoundly silly, this line of argument is surprisingly common, as aspiring deconstructionists routinely claim that Christmas is “really” a celebration of the winter solstice. Of course, none of the ever growing number of faux Christmases now being fostered by the multiculturalists – Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, Ramadan, Diwali, Bodhi Day, the Birth of Guru Gobind Singh, Dongji, Chinese New Year, and the rest – is ever subjected to this sort of critical analysis.

It is probably true that December 25th was chosen as the date to commemorate Christ’s birth to coincide with (and supplant) the pagan festival of Natalis Invicti. But the holiday that has been the major festival in the West for centuries is Christmas, not some extinct pagan celebration. Over centuries, Christmas has become an integral part of our culture, incorporating and transforming some pre-Christian customs and inspiring a wealth of new ones. The end result was a reflection of the genius of Western culture and a splendid, multifaceted celebration.

Christmas has inspired beauty wherever it has been observed. The treasury of Christmas music, for example, is unmatched by that of any other holiday. It is the result of both famous composers and inspired folk artists working in every corner of Christendom. The lesson to be learned from the defunct pagan festivals that preceded Christmas is not that Christmas ought to be abolished, but that we risk losing Christmas if we allow the multiculturalists to replace Christmas with “holiday.”

In fact, as I learend after I wrote that piece, there is even evidence that the Romans appropriated the date the early Church had set aside to observe the birth of Christ:  http://www.vdare.com/piatak/christmas_2003_x.htm

Yehya,
Those of us who believe the Cross represents the whole moral order on which Western civilization was founded will ‘move on” too. But it may mean a new direction.

Scott with all due respect, Ron Paul only called out huck for using his faith to hit on his opponents like they are not as good a Christian as he is.You are the one who filled 2 columns on this issue so you must be the one the who wants to argue not me.The foreign policy of all the prowar republicans has a fascist nature to it.Ron Paul did not bash Christians only one phoney and you are the basher of 2 good men Ron Paul and Bill Donohue
Any way have a merry Christmass enough of this bullshit.

@CK

Do your own research.  It will be much more fruitful than me telling you what to read.  I assume you have access to the same “internets” as I, unless you live in some hell-hole like Red China or Utah.

@Non Spartacus

St Bellarmine doesn’t seem to be advocating “Christian Democracy”, but givng a disertation on the origin of political, secular power, and the “rights of an individual”, which really has nothing to do with voting.

As for the Rule of St Benedict, once again, that is not “democracy”, but simply a closed society voting for a leader, no different than one or more Germanic clan(s) voting for a “chief”.  I am not opposed to voting, as I alluded to in my original post, but I am opposed to some massive government being run by a group of people, even if that group is entirely Catholic, voting.

@Tom
How can one lose Christmas as a Christian because someone else says Happy Holidays?  Where is the diminishment in your soul for your belief in your God?  Does my saying Happy Yule make your God any less real? Make Christmas any less Christian?
Does recognizing that all the religions from all the pagans upwards recognized that time of year when the daylight hours reversed their path and began to inrease again; and celebrated it?
I did not say that Christmas is really the solstice, what I said was that the wily elders of the Christian church appropriated the solstice and placed Christmas there instead of say in August or April 15th.  Did not God in his ineffable wisdom create the solstices and the equinoxes?  I also did not specify a calendar date since the calendar is an arbitrary construct hanging about since the bad old days and subject to adjustment by humans to fit our secular needs.  Now when the FedGov decides in its wisdom to move Christmas to the first Monday following Dec25th or following the winter solstice, that will be the secularization to battle,
The faux Christmases remark needs work.  If only to get the dates correct.  Ramadan is a moveable feast ( this year it was in Sept/Oct, next year it is in Sept), Hannukah predates the Christian celebrations, Chinese New Years is likewise a moveable feast ( early February this year and next).  I am not sure that Kwanzaa correltates to any holiday for any of the tribes of Sub-Saharan Africa or if it is even mentioned let alone celebrated anywhere outside the USA.
Thank you for a polite and useful response.  The other holidays you cite I will assume are for other Asiatic Religions.
Thank you for a polite and useful response; especially about that Roman celebration.

Mr Piatak. Re. Christmas.

First Apology St. Justin Martyr

Chapter 34. Place of Christ’s birth foretold.

And hear what part of earth He was to be born in, as another prophet, Micah,
foretold. He spoke thus: “And thou, Bethlehem, the land of Judah, art not the
least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall come forth a Governor,
who shall feed My people.” Micah 5:2 Now there is a village in the land of the
Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you
can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your
first procurator in Judæa.

Against Marcion: Tertullian

And yet how could He have been admitted into the synagogue—one so abruptly
appearing, so unknown; one, of whom no one had as yet been apprised of His
tribe, His nation, His family, and lastly, His enrolment in the census of
Augustus—that most faithful witness of the Lord’s nativity, kept in the archives
of Rome

The Liturgical Year: Dom Gueranger

And firstly, with regard to our Saviour’s Birth on Dec. 25, we have St. John
Chrysostom telling us in his homliy for this Feast, that the Western Churches
had, from the very commencement of Christianity, kept it on this day. He is notsatisfied with merely mentioning this tradition; he undertakes to show it is
very well founded, inasmuch as the Church of Rome had every means of knowing the
true day of our Saviour’s Birth, since the acts of the enrollment, taken in
Judea by command of Augustus, were kept in the public archives of Rome.The Holy
Doctor adduces a second arguement, which he founds upon the Gospel of St. Luke,
and he reasons thus: we know from the sacred Scriptures that it must have been
in the fast of the sevent month (Lev 23.the 7th month, Tsiri, corresponded to
out Sept, beginning of October) that the Priest Zachary had the vision in the
Temple; after which Elizabeth, his wife, conceived St. John the Baptist; hence
it follows that that the Blessed Virgin Mary having, as the Evangelist St Luke
relates, received the Angel Gabriel’s visit, and conceived the Saviour of the
world in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, that is to say March, the
Birth of Jesus must have taken palce in the month of December.

(can’t remember where I originally copied the following from)

Pseudo-Knowledge and “Pagan Christmas”

Time was when I, like most people, took it for granted the winter solstice and,
in particular, the Roman Feast of the Birth of the Unconquered Sun were simply
pagan celebrations that hung around into Christian times. In fact, when I set
out to write this book I still thought this. But I discovered the reality is far
more complicated and interesting. Indeed, it turns out this widely assumed
“fact” that “everybody knows” is probably another sample of pseudo-knowledge.
For according to William Tighe, a church history specialist at Pennsylvania’s
Muhlenberg College, “the pagan festival of the ‘Birth of the Unconquered Sun’
instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost
certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of
some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the ‘pagan origins of Christmas’ is
a myth without historical substance.”

For the fact is, our records of a tradition associating Jesus’ birth with
December 25 are decades older than any records concerning a pagan feast on that
day.

[T]he definitive “Handbook of Biblical Chronology” by professor Jack Finegan
(Hendrickson, 1998 revised edition) cites an important reference in the
“Chronicle” written by Hippolytus of Rome three decades before Aurelian launched
his festival. Hippolytus said Jesus’ birth “took place eight days before the
kalends of January,” that is, Dec. 25.

Tighe said there’s evidence that as early as the second and third centuries,
Christians sought to fix the birth date to help determine the time of Jesus’
death and resurrection for the liturgical calendar—long before Christmas also
became a festival.

To make a long and complicated story short, there was agitation in the early
Church concerning, not Jesus’ birthday, but the day upon which the historical
Good Friday and Easter fell. It finally ended up that, in the Eastern Church,
the tradition focused on April 6 as the date for the original Good Friday, while
in the Western Church it was widely held that the date was March 25. Why does
this matter? Tighe continues:

At this point, we have to introduce a belief that seems to have been widespread
in Judaism at the time of Christ, but which, as it is nowhere taught in the
Bible, has completely fallen from the awareness of Christians. The idea is that
of the “integral age” of the great Jewish prophets: the idea that the prophets
of Israel died on the same dates as their birth or conception.

This notion is a key factor in understanding how some early Christians came to believe that December 25th is the date of Christ’s birth. The early Christians applied this idea to Jesus, so that March 25th and April 6th were not only the supposed dates of Christ’s death, but of his conception or birth as well. There is some fleeting evidence that at least some first- and second-century Christians thought of March 25th or April 6th as the date of Christ’s birth, but rather quickly the assignment of March 25th as the date of Christ’s conception prevailed.

It is to this day commemorated almost universally among Christians as the Feast
of the Annunciation, when the Archangel Gabriel brought the good tidings of a
savior to the Virgin Mary, upon whose acquiescence the Eternal Word of God
("Light of Light, True God of True God, begotten of the Father before all ages")
forthwith became incarnate in her womb. What is the length of pregnancy? Nine
months. Add nine months to March 25th and you get December 25th; add it to April
6th and you get January 6th. December 25th is Christmas, and January 6th is
Epiphany.

And because these traditional, albeit competing, birth dates were already being
revered in the rapidly growing Church, the emperor of a failing pagan empire
instituted the Feast of the Unconquered Sun not only as an “effort to use the
winter solstice to make a political statement, but also almost certainly [as] an attempt to give a pagan significance to a date already of importance to Roman
Christians.”

In addition to this there’s another small, but telling, point. We also find St. John Chrysostom (a patriarch of Constantinople who died in 407 A.D.) noted that Christians had celebrated December 25 from the Church’s early days. Chrysostom reinforced his point with an argument that used Scripture, not pagan mythology,
for corroboration:

Luke 1 says Zechariah was performing priestly duty in the Temple when an angel
told his wife Elizabeth she would bear John the Baptist. During the sixth month
of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, Mary learned about her conception of Jesus and visited
Elizabeth “with haste.”

The 24 classes of Jewish priests served one week in the Temple, and Zechariah
was in the eighth class. Rabbinical tradition fixed the class on duty when the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 and, calculating backward from that, Zechariah’s class would have been serving Oct. 2-9 in 5 B.C. So Mary’s conception visit six months later might have occurred the following March and Jesus’ birth nine months afterward.

So how did it become “common knowledge” that Christmas is really just a
warmed-over pagan festival? It happened through a series of ironies capped by
yet another example of pseudo-knowledge.

The first irony is the reaction of the Christians of the late Roman Empire to
Aurelian’s attempt to co-opt Christmas and make it a pagan day of celebration.
Instead of fighting with Sun-worshipers who were trying to rip off their feast,
early Christians simply re-appropriate[d] the pagan ‘Birth of the Unconquered
Sun’ to refer, on the occasion of the birth of Christ, to the rising of the ‘Sun of Salvation’ or the ‘Sun of Justice.’” Mark that, because we shall return to it.

The next irony happens in the 17th and 18th centuries, when the myth of “pagan
Christmas” really took hold.

Paul Ernst Jablonski, a German Protestant, wished to show that the celebration of Christ’s birth on December 25th was one of the many “paganizations” of Christianity that the Church of the fourth century embraced, as one of many
“degenerations” that transformed pure apostolic Christianity into Catholicism.
Dom Jean Hardouin, a Benedictine monk, tried to show that the Catholic Church
adopted pagan festivals for Christian purposes without paganizing the Gospel.

In the Julian calendar, created in 45 B.C. under Julius Caesar, the winter
solstice fell on December 25th, and it therefore seemed obvious to Jablonski and
Hardouin that the day must have had a pagan significance before it had a
Christian one.

Note that: Jablonski began, not with evidence, but with an assumption that the
winter solstice must have had a pagan significance before it had a Christian
one. In other words, Jablonski simply noticed a correspondence between the
Julian calendar’s solstice and Christmas and assumed the pagan feast must have
been the prior one even though he had no proof for his theory. Meanwhile,
Hardouin, rather than challenge that assumption, simply went along with it. And it’s upon these two authors that the entire myth about Christmas being a
warmed-over pagan Sun-worshiping feast is based.

But in fact, the date [December 25] had no religious significance in the Roman
pagan festal calendar before Aurelian’s time, nor did the cult of the sun play a
prominent role in Rome before him.

There were two temples of the sun in Rome, one of which (maintained by the clan into which Aurelian was born or adopted) celebrated its dedication festival on August 9th, the other of which celebrated its dedication festival on August 28th. But both of these cults fell into neglect in the second century, when eastern cults of the sun, such as Mithraism, began to win a following in Rome.

And in any case, none of these cults, old or new, had festivals associated with
solstices or equinoxes.

What Can We Learn From This?

It is vital we not get bogged down in minutiae and miss the blazingly obvious.
So, for instance, we must not get distracted by the irrelevant question of
whether Roman Christians were right to place Jesus’ birthday on December 25. Nor
should we waste time saying, “Ah ha! Some early Christians relied on the unbiblical Jewish tradition of ‘integral age’ or Chrysostom’s ‘rabbinic tradition’!” Again, granted: the date of Christmas isn’t found in Scripture. But
that isn’t what matters.

The crucial thing is not, “Did the early Christians get the date of Christmas
right?” It is, rather, “What mattered to them as they determined the date of
Christmas?” And when you look at that, you again immediately realize that what
dominates their minds is not Diana, Isis, sun worship, or anything else in the
pagan religious world. What interests them is, from our modern multicultural
perspective, stunningly insular. Their debates are consumed, not by longing for
goddess worship, or pagan mythology, or a desire to import Isis and Diana into
the Faith, but the exact details of the New Testament record of Jesus’ death,
alloyed with a Jewish—-not pagan—-theory about when Jewish—-not pagan—-prophets
die. They don’t care a bit how pagan priests ordered their worship in the Temple of Diana at Ephesus. They care intensely about how Levitical priests ordered their worship in the Temple of Solomon at Jerusalem. These Christians are completely riveted on Scripture and details of Jewish and Christian history and tradition. They don’t give a hoot what sun worshipers, Osiris devotees, or Isis fans might think.

A Common Objection

At this point some people object, “But you yourself acknowledge the early
Christians ‘re-appropriated the pagan “Birth of the Unconquered Sun”’ to refer
to the birth of Christ”. True. That is, I’m willing to grant that when Aurelian
tried to co-opt a Christian holy day by designating it as the date for a pagan
festival, Christians checkmated Aurelius by refusing to allow him to claim a
sort of copyright on the Sun for paganism. Instead, they insisted on returning the Sun to the service of God its Creator—Whom Scripture calls the True Light of the World and a Sun and a Shield—and did not make the blunder of worshiping the creature. They behaved rather like modern Christians who offer punning riffs on current cultural phenomena ("Jesus: He’s the Real Thing” “Christ: Don’t Leave Earth Without Him,” etc.). Exactly what they did not do is take passages of Scripture which referred to Jesus and apply them to Apollo or some other pagan deity. Nor did they look to Apollo or some other pagan deity to tell them about Jesus; they knew perfectly well Jesus could be represented as the Sun of Justice and Light of the World long before Aurelius invented his pagan festival. That’s because early Christians were behaving in a way perfectly consistent with Scripture, becoming “all things to all men” (1 Corinthians 9:22), not “holding the form of religion while denying the power of it” (2 Timothy 3:5).

This matters immensely because it bears directly on the first moment when the
early Catholic Church really did borrow something from pagans. And not just any
pagans, mind you, but actual adherents of Babylonian Mystery Religion. And most
amazingly, the early Catholics’ decision to do so receives the complete approval
of, and even hearty defense by… Evangelicals.

Why do these Evangelicals enthusiastically endorse the testimony of Babylonian Mystery religionists? I can’t give away everything! When the book(s?) come out all will be revealed! Keep praying and I hope in Christ to see some action on this soon!

(FWIW. I am convinced Dec 25 is the actual date)

What I want to know CK is how many sun worshippers are you willing to not offend at the cost of offending many Christians such as myself.  I have never met a sun worshipper. Are they Druid?  I personally cannot think of a “holiday” that we are celebrating at this time of year that celebrates the spirit of giving, charity, brotherhood, and kindness unless it is Christmas.  So why go out of your way to avoid saying the word.  It should not be offensive to anyone and it does not constitute forcing your beliefs on anyone either. If someone wishes me a happy chanukah I am not insulted if they are Jewish and they meant it with all sincerity.  I will wish them Merry Christmas with all good intentions.  The evil of political correctness is the presuposition of an insult where none is intended.  Instead of bringin God into our world where he belongs we hide him like a disease from a world that sorley is in need.

C K,

I have written a number of articles on the subject, most of which you may find here:  http://www.vdare.com/piatak/index.htm

Most of my Christmas essays are found there, except for my Vdare essay of this year and this piece, the first one I wrote, for Chronicles in 2001:  http://www.vdare.com/pb/war_against_christmas_2001.htm

I believe these articles answer your questions, as to why I am concerned about the War against Christmas, and why I believe the other winter holidays are being treated as “faux Christmases.”

Enjoy.

I am not Spartacus:

There’s some good stuff there, thanks.  I was not aware of Dom Gueranger’s arguments.  The Tighe article from Touchstone was excellent.

Here is a link to the slimy Michael Novak Romney endorsement post.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTc5NjdiNWVhNThmZDJhZWYwMzM4ZmIyNjgxM2MwODI=

Check out this universalist tripe.

“One of my favorite texts from the New Testament is “By their fruits you shall know them.” That verse has taught me to look for persons who actually love God, not so much by the churches they attend or what they say they believe, but by how they and their families live their lives. Over two public generations now, the Romney family has given us examples of upright, decent, warm lives, given to public commitment even though they did not have to be.”

These days, though, it has become imperative for some Christians to come out publicly for Mitt, now that his religion has come under unfair attack…

And last night and today I was too sick at heart at Mike Huckabee’s low and dirty dig at the Mormon faith, along disgustingly false lines. In running a clean campaign, the devil is in the details. Here Huckabee made the devil into a dirty headline. It seems to be a fatal mistake. Since Huckabee has shown himself to be such a good-humored, folksy man, this aside was entirely unnecessary, and emphatically wrong. He should disown it, and publicly apologize, very quickly.

In any case, that’s the last straw. Someone has to protest, in the name of Christianity itself, that spreading bigotry and hatred for the sake of winning a political campaign is wrong. I for one don’t want to let this issue of bigotry and suspicion pass by without protest — and without open support for its victim. The least Americans can do is speak up for each other on matters of religious liberty.”

Get that? It is our Christian duty to support a Mormon because of Huckabee’s “dirty dig” that just happens to be true, and concerns about Romney’s Mormonism are bigotry. How much does Novak get paid for this kind of shilling? Thirty pieces of silver comes to mind.

@Red Phillips:

How dare you attack such a good man!  Just ask Jack!  Any man on the board of the Catholic League must be beyond reproach!

@Tom
Thanks for the link Tom.
@IAMNOTSpartacus
Thanks for the detailed post.
@M.Nucci
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/105850.html

Bill Donahue has been putting his ass on the line for a long time Scott while you have been hiding at a obsure place in north central Ill.Does he make some mistakes sure,but he’s still a good man.He was also right about Huck get over it.The catholic league has some neocons on it, but as far as I know they are practicing Catholics. They never stopped Bill from agressively fighting for the Passion of the Christ and standing up for Mel Gibson when he got hauled in on drunk driving.He used to be friendly with with Abe Foxman but thats gone now too.

C K:

You’re welcome!

Jack,

Scott Richert has hardly been “hiding” anywhere; Rockford is where he works.  And I’m glad he works there, too.  It’s important--and refreshing--to have conservative institutions based somewhere other than Manhattan or D. C.  And I would point out that Chronicles published the three essays I wrote defending Gibson and “The Passion of the Christ.”

Mr. Capp;

I am most impressed by your posts.

Democracy is pure evil - inhuman, anti-religious thinking. It is the world’s longest-lasting homosexual fantasy.

Power corrupts. And when the people have the power, who does it corrupt? A nation; a people can survive a degenerate king corrupted by power. It cannot survive the people themselves becoming corrupted - greedy and callous and infantile and atheistic and amoral and venal. And when that is carried worldwide on the winds of global democratic revolution - not to mention television - we can see a collapse on the horizon of a type not seen since Romulus Augustulus was patted on the back and shipped off to live with his aunties.

Mr.Piatak,with all due respect,Mr Donohue was out fighting on national TV for many nights with a lot of agressive nasty people.He and Mr. Paul have fighting the good fight for a long time they are old. If think you can do a better job why don’t you start another group to fight for Catholic rights. there is certainly room for more.Mr. Donohue was right about Hucks use of the Cross and you and Mr.Richert are wrong.By the way I don’t live in D.C.or New York but 65 miles North of you.

thanks.

Mr. Piatak. You’re welcome. I am reflexively suspicious of any argument mounted against Holy Mother Church and her orthopraxis.

And, there is a pattern here.

Many opponents of the Church established by Jesus charge her with stealing from paganism, or worshipping the sun, or imitating the Cult of Mithra when precisely the opposite is true.

For example Mithra imitated we Catholics.

St. Justin the Martyr.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist.

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

+++++++++ end quote +++++++++++++

Keep-up the great work. You and Mr. Richert are among the reasons this season I will get a subscription to Chronicles.

Have a Blessed Advent, brother.

It is our Christian duty to support a Mormon because of Huckabee’s “dirty dig” that just happens to be true, and concerns about Romney’s Mormonism are bigotry.

Mr. Phillips. You ought be ashamed. Mr. Romney recognises we are in a world-wide war and that the literal existence of our nation is at stake and so he has sent his five sons out as political foot soldiers in the vicious campaign wars in dangerous Iowa to keep America safe.

This is the time of your political visitation/salvation and you do not even recognise it.

What a pity.

@I am not Spartacus:

“This is the time of your political visitation/salvation and you do not even recognise it.”

LOL!  I’m glad there are a few people who have a sense of humor and proper perspective mixed in with the mass of humorless ideologues who populate these comment threads.

And thanks for the kind words.

I am not Spartacus,

Thanks for your kind words.

I am glad to hear you are subscribing to Chronicles.  It’s a great magazine.

Nativity story is a legend according to the Archbishorp of Canterbury;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=JHPSTTVO4EG5FQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/12/20/nwise120.xml

Next; “The Resurrection is a metaphor.”

@I am not Spartacus,

the image that I get of five Romney clones canvassing Iowa is hilarious....and somewhat scary.  They are no doubt feeding him information on what positions he may need to reverse himself on.