Unlike Justin and Scott, I can not rush to the defense of usually predictable Jewish
liberals who say something unconventional about Israel. They and the neocons are
equally despicable human types and given Klein’s views about the use of state power
to push his odious leftist social agenda, I would consider him an enemy of liberty and
traditional social morality, no matter what his opinions about the Middle East.
And if this jerk fell into relative obscurity tomorrow, that is, had the number
of his TV appearances reduced by a third, I still couldn’t work up the slightest
sympathy for him or his tiresome public rhetoric. Criticizing Israel is not for me a
necessary litmus test of who’s on my side.

Joe Klein: the boy who lived?

Uh, Paul, Klein didn’t criticize Israel—he criticized the Israel lobby here in the good ol’ USA. And that is a hate crime for which he may be exiled to the margins—but, hey, you don’t have a problem with that because of his “social agenda.” Hmmmmm......

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with Professor Gottfried as well.  I consider myself a Zionist, but have big problems with the power of the Israeli-Jewish lobby in the US.  And I have bigger problems with the intimidation they exercise toward any and all dissenters.  Censorship is the most un-American thing I can think of.

If you want to know who really runs things in any organization or country, just look at who it is not safe to criticize.

He’s got an awful lot of nerve flinging insults at Joementum Lieberman, the most confused Democrat In History and raising doubts about Congress’ loyalties in front of the prosaic civilians who read Time. TIME should only think happy thoughts......and dispense warm journalistic hugs because the public is getting over-besieged by reality and just cannot be expected to handle the complex appreciation of wild dysfunction that the current situation demands.

Best to concentrate upon sentimental salutes to the difficult burdens we Americans Carry in this Fearsome Age of Terror and spice that with a story on Medvedev’s Ivory-handled Bullwhip Collection or the news that Ahmadinejad ate dinner with a Santeria Priestess in Harlem when he came to New York to take a few lumps at Columbia . After all, if the public has to swallow restraints on their motoring utopia and be reminded that their government is a wholly -owned division of K Street Corporation....why, thats just not polite. He should be ashamed.....or, at least remember he should feel guilty.

Does anyone know whether Klein himself is Jewish?  The name often is, especially on the East Coast, but there are also a lot of Midwestern Germans named Klein.

Just curious, since it may well influence his fate for this blatant thought crime.

Fletcher, I recently read that Klein is indeed a Jew.  And I agree with your assessment that if he weren’t Jewish, it would be all over for him.

It’s a sad statement on our times when the validity or permissibility of an idea or proposition is contingent upon who makes the statement.  It used to be a fallacy called poisoning the well.

I have to disagree with you Dunnyveg, Jews who are not Jewish enough can
also be punished when they speak out. Look what they did to Bobby Fisher!
And most Americans think it was Bobby’s fault, unaware of his side of the story!

Just keep telling yourself that Iran means no threat to us. Ignore all comments by its leadership, its opnen WMD program, and its ICBM program.
Just keep saying its all Israel’s fault. There is no Jihad, Islam never conquered anything. In fact there is no Iran. It is still the Zoroastrian Persian Empire.
And anyone who disagrees is a dirty Zionist, dupe, or has dual loyalties.

Bob D, I’m not aware of the situation with Bobby Fisher, but considering the mendacity of the MSM, I wouldn’t be surprised.  They’re Leftists first, and only newsmen as an afterthought.  Accordingly, please provide me with a link if you have one.

Having said that, it’s my experience that Jews are generally pretty forgiving of their own, providing they don’t do something draconian like converting to Christianity.

I can give you a case in point:  The Left, and Jews in particular, love to malign Joe McCarthy for his “witch hunts”.  But his assistant, Roy Cohn, was a big player in this affair.  Yet he is largely forgiven.

But I would like to see some info on Bobby Fisher.  I must admit something seemed amiss when I read about him before his death.

Bobby Fischer was a psychologically unbalanced individual who became a Holocaust Denier, called for the arrest of all leading American Jews, and who called for the destruction of the US follow 9-11.

I think some people posting here have to decide whether their loyalty is to America or to hatred of Jews because you cannot have 2 masters.

The phrase “America’s Likudniks” just shows that the writer is conjuring up his own image of Jewish-American demons rather than describing reality.  The Likud is a real-life populist, center-right political party, with a wide spectrum of attitudes and views, some overlapping the Labor Party.

Back in America, where Mr. Raimondo has less of an excuse for ignorance, a lot of the most obnoxious Zionists are anti-Likud.  Alan Dershowitz is just one name that comes to mind.

It’s actually possible to write a good rousing diatribe without resorting to hackneyed formulas.  Give it a try!

The Jewish identity of Jewish Zionist Neocons is relevant to their motives for those who put Israel first, or might be motivated by Israel first proclivities, but are trying to conceal it. What’s the big deal with pointing this out? Christian Zionists are thusly identified on the issue of Israel. It’s all germane to their animating cause célèbre.

RonL,

Why don’t you take your filthy lies somewhere else.  Everyone here on Takimag knows what Ahmedinejad’s comments actually were.  Perhaps you would care to elucidate a little more about the Iranian WMD program, when they called for a Jihad against the U.S. and when it was Ahmedinejad toppled the Zoroastrians as well.

Um, I regret the tone of my comment above.  I should have waited a second before clicking the Submit button.

Just keep telling yourself that Iran means no threat to us.

Not only Iran. What about The Duchy of Grand Fenwick?

According to Glenn Beck, them bastards have the Q Bomb.

Joe Klein murmured support for the war on the eve of the Iraq invasion, and he doesn’t seem any vanguard of an American media less circumscribed and lickspittle. But I hope he survives this dust-up with the Zionist steamroller simply because one tiny victory may portend others… leading to a final dissolution of the Lobby’s power and influence. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Why else would they want to shut off all discussion of this most relevant topic? They helped lie is into an unnecessary war… but to openly talk about this ugly scheme automatically rates as one of Abe Foxman’s famous “age-old anti-Semitic canards”. Lying bastards! Wanna dream? Dream BIG: Smash the Lobby!

I don’t know whether Mr. Moore’s comment was a reply to mine, but if so, I’ll answer.  There’s nothing wrong at all about pointing out the relevance of the Jewish neocons’ (and many other Jewish-Americans’) Jewish identity.  It’s obviously important to their political views.  Point it out forcefully and often, I say.

But who’s an “American Likudnik”?  Paul Gottfried?  He supported Prime Minister Sharon during his most hawkish period.  Alan Dershowitz?  Nope: anti-Likud, anti-settlements.  The “pro-transfer” American Zionists?  Many of them are opposed to the Likud from the Right, because the Likud has always been against transfer. 

Formulas like “American Likudniks” distort rather than clarify.

“I think some people posting here have to decide whether their loyalty is to America or to hatred of Jews because you cannot have 2 masters.”

I’m loyal to my culture and people.  Today loyalty to both government and people simply isn’t possible.  As was the case in the old Soviet empire, we’re witnessing the state against its own citizens. 

As far as “Jew hatred” goes, I’m not sure what you mean.  It seems to me that everybody and everything should be open to good criticism, bad criticism, or no criticism at all.  The way things are now though, the only Jew not above criticism is Jesus Christ.  To me that’s unacceptable.  And Jews shouldn’t accept it either.

I dont like lobbies, period. Wether they are Arabic, Colombian, Israeli, big money, big oil, big pharma or big tobacco.

Our government has become a conglomerate of special interest groups.

Israel can protect itself and many Jewish people bristle at the thought they need the US to protect them.

I’m loyal to my culture and people.

So am I. And that’s why I don’t give a damn about Israel - or what happens to it.

I agree with Ploni Almoni. ‘American Likudnik’ is a misleading term. They should be refered to as ‘American Knesseters (ians, ites, ans?).

“I’m loyal to my culture and people.

“So am I. And that’s why I don’t give a damn about Israel - or what happens to it.”

I don’t think the US owes a thing to Israel that it doesn’t owe to every other country on earth, which isn’t much.  Having said that, I do believe that every people is entitled to a place of its own.  And for Jews that is Israel.

I do think the Israelis would do well to buy out the Palestinians.  If somebody were to try to take my property, I’d be up in arms too.  But if somebody buys my property, we’re both happy.  And as expensive as such a proposal would be, I think ultimately it would be cheaper than what the Israelis are doing now.

Ronl, what annoys many of us about the so-called Iranian threat is that it seems like we have contributed to it by our actions and inevitable counter actions to those aforementioned actions. 

Why did we have to get involved in their internal policies and engineer the 1953 overthrow of their democratically elected government?  Didn’t this help lead to the revolution in 79? Iran wasn’t the regional power in the ME until we took out Saddam. Funny how no one appears to have thought that through before the invasion.

If Iran is a threat to Europe, then let the EU put up its own missile defense shield.  If Iran is a threat to Turkey or Saudi Arabia, let them take care of it.  Turkey is militarily stronger and Saudi Arabia can afford to pay for its defense.

If Iran is a threat to Israel, let them deal with it. If they can’t defend themselves than what was the point of providing over $100 billion in aid?

I don’t believe Iran is a substantial threat to the US especially when one remembers the USSR during the Cold War.  We were able to contain the USSR and Red China.  Yes we had proxy wars off and on as we might with Iran as long as we meddle in the ME.  But if those two giants did not require us to take them out in preventive war, then why would a pipsqueak like Iran require it?

I was responding to the trouble that Joe Klein appears to be in for uttering the descriptor “Jewish” before neoconservatives, and saying that their plumping for the Iraq war “raised the question of divided loyalties: using U.S. military power, U.S. lives and money, to make the world safe for Israel.”

All of which is true.

But in Soviet-like, neoconized-America, uttering obvious truths simply…isn’t…allowed. At this rate, it won’t be long before guys like Klein are just taken out and shot by Homeland Security—all in the name of spreading freedom and democracy to the Middle East.

“Just keep saying its all Israel’s fault.”

Okay, RonL. Feel better now?

Ludwig von Mises wrote that to find the nature of something, go back to its origin. Is it just coincidental that neoconservativism was born when the international left turned against Israel and embraced the Palestinians?

“equally despicable human types...”

Demonization is a staple of war-mongers and ideologues. Need it appear here?

RonL, Iran’s missiles are a threat to our troops (and the flow of oil, etc.) if we remain in Iraq and if we attack them. Which is why we should do neither.

“I do think the Israelis would do well to buy out the Palestinians.  If somebody were to try to take my property, I’d be up in arms too.  But if somebody buys my property, we’re both happy.  And as expensive as such a proposal would be, I think ultimately it would be cheaper than what the Israelis are doing now.”

same same Iraqi oil, but, it wasn’t about the oil really, was it.

Like all geniuses Bobby Fisher had his idiosyncracies, no doubt about it. I think if I were a genius and I had to suffer blithering idiot parrots like Ron L all my life, I’d come across a little unhinged.

I never met Bobby Fisher, but played competetive chess in the New York are during Bobby’s teenage and 20 something years. I knew some of his admirers. I didn’t rely on the Zionist MSM like Ron L does.

Bobby refused to compete in tournaments and was picky about matches for good reason. The Russians knew they couldn’t beat him fair and square, elected a few of their collegues to win the tournament, throwing the games they played against them, and tried to score a draw against Bobby. That’s a winning strategy in master & grandmaster chess.

Ron L is a Bobby Fisher’s Holocast denyer. If two wrongs make a right, lets run Ron L out of the country.

I take comfort in the fact that Bobby did have his true friends. Iceland, where he had played his famous match gave him refuge amongst people who really knew him and loved him. All in all he had not such a bad life.

Heres an idea,
1. Buy a bike
2. Send Iran a letter telling them thy should feel free to waste as much money as they want on building nuclear bombs and then remind them in closing that the Sunnis are Heretics who hate them
3. Send Israel a Dear John Letter
4. Send the Sauds a Bronx Cheer
5. Set up a pay per view channel where we broadcast show trials of American Politicians, Publishers and Lobbyists and use the income to redeem the debt to China before giving them a little note too...saying “Sorry, we changed our minds”.
6. Burn every record of the Agriculture Department, the last bastion of Soviet Socialism since 1910
7. Close the border and require both first and last months rent with a known and marketable skill for anyone who wants to immigrate but only let them in if we can trade each immigrant for 5 politicians and 7 lobbyists going to their home country with a no returns policy in effect
8. Tell the IMF that sure, why not?....they can happily investigate the Financial Records of the United States Government and it’s Treasury dept and FED as long as they publish the complete findings in both Sports Illustrated and Screw Magazine in a Summer Reading Serial
9. Start a Club Veteran in the estates of our K Street Lobbyists and their Politician Bag Men and give our military Veterans free use of them before subletting the Pentagon as a time share condo to a bunch of Chinese Oligarchs
10. Legalize everything but tax heavily anything that upsets the finer sensibilities of a committee of 9 grandmothers from 3 midwestern states directed by a really tough old Black Great-Grandmother from Tuscaloosa who dont take no crap from nobody.

The Itralians started the Slow Food Movement , I say we start the Slow Capitalism Movement

Dirk W. Sabin:

Beautiful plan - “Sound policies for a better tomorrow”.

The only thing that’s disagreeable is the hacks-for-immigrants proposal: dumping America’s most toxic citizens abroad in exchange for other countries’ best & brightest is resolutely unfair. Better have them break rocks in some disused gravel pit.

Thirty four American crewmen on the USS Liberty were murdered and 171 wounded in the combined air and sea attack June 8, 1967, by the Israeli Defense Force. The ship was in international waters. Robert McNamara personally ordered two flights from the Saratoga back and LBJ and even Goldwater agreed to let them get away with it.

With a $40M claim against it, the state of Israel offered $6M, one for each Jew killed in the Holocaust. The offer was excepted and the case closed.

Jonathan Pollard gave US intelligence to Israel who betrayed US assets to the Russians.

The Likudniks in question were working for Bibi Netanyahu during the Clinton Administration where they came up with the hair brained scheme to attack Iraq. Bibi was to wise to take them up on it but they ended up in the Bush DoD.

Republican and Democratic politicians are guilty. Labour and Likud in Israel as well.

Jefferson is right, the best unit of government is the smallest and most local. I think it was Twain who said we had no organized criminal class in the US, except for politicians.

Wow, this place has really become a JHA (Jew-Haters Anonymous) meeting.
Except rather than trying to cure their vice - which is based on exaggerations, half-truths, distortions and lies in the service of some emotional deficit - they’re all encouraging each other to indulge in it.

Oh, deary, deary me…

Dunnyveg - thanks for your comments.. they are really refreshing, open and honest… as for RonL and finnegan, i am reminded of kids who fart in public while feeling proud of it...what can one say to that??

The problem is, SETI, Jews are the “Chosen People” and “Israel” is the “Chosen Land” by those “People”.

If you abandon Israel, you turn your back on the Protestant popes of America, and they are the ones that control the minds of the men who control the United States military.

America’s military is controlled by Satanists (read: Protestants) and they are “Hell-bent” on supporting their side (the Satanic Talmudists) in their war against the Satanic Muslims.

When it comes to a Satanic orgy, it’s best to just pray it not happen.  Do whatever it takes not to get involved…

I think some people posting here have to decide whether their loyalty is to America or to hatred of Jews because you cannot have 2 masters.

I think one follows from the other (accepting for the purposes of argument your tendentious phrasing, anyway), but all the same, I’ll take neither for $500 Alex.

(America sold me down the river long ago)

Posted by finnegan on Jul 10, 2008.

I hate Micks too.  Happy now, potato head?

“Dunnyveg - thanks for your comments.. they are really refreshing, open and honest… as for RonL and finnegan, i am reminded of kids who fart in public while feeling proud of it...what can one say to that??”

Thanks for the nice words, and I agree with you.  Again, nobody should be above criticism.  Criticism used well by the recipient allows for self-improvement, and nobody is perfect enough not to need to improve.  Education itself is nothing more than formalized criticism.

What’s really sad is that so many otherwise good people have internalized this belief that Jews (excepting Jesus Christ of course) are above criticism.

Hatred has nothing to do with anything in this thread.  And of course not all Jews are part of the problem.  For instance, I greatly admire Paul Gottfried.

I feel sorry for Finnegan and RonL.  They’re not doing anybody any good, least of all themselves.  They really need to get their own thinking straight before they try telling anybody else what to think.

The Controversy of Zion by Douglas Reed is a pretty informative book. It can be found
for free online. The larger game in Iraq was always
about forcing them to stick with our currency, which trumps every other consideration.
There’s space for everyone on this planet, and a place for every people (except whites).
There’s also space for plenty of room in between. Whatever whacked out god people have
is none of my business, whether it be Allah, Moloch, or Billy Graham.