I learned a lot from this piece, thank you!

As for the underlying question, what it means today to be either French or American, I say secession is the wave of the future in both lands (to say nothing of Canada) and will bring about two, three many belles provinces, the end of nationalism is nigh!

“In the wilds of Pennsylvania, a group of nobility attempted to replicate St. Martinville’s ephemeral success with a settlement called Azylum, Pennsylvania.”

Yes, and Mr Coloumbe, there were more than one such settlement of exiled French aristocracy in upstate Pennsylvania.  Most towns with French names in upstate Pennsylvania were founded by French exiles who escaped the Revolutionary terror.

I, too, am (on my maternal grandmother’s side) descend from French who
fled to America consequent to the French Revolution.  But my family history is more complicated.  My grandmother’s grandfather, Conrad Dietsche, was born in Elzach, Baden in 1818, just across the river from his ancestral Alsace.  The story of what happened to their family after 1789 still has some gaps, but here’s a sketch:  My ancestor Conrad’s father (whose name I have written down somewhere) and his family were relatively
poor provincial aristocrats in Alsace - whatever residual titles they held were merely honourary, going back to the ANCIENT (and by 1789, powerless) Seigneurs de Diest (Diest is in Belgium), and the descendants of Guillaume de Diest, the Bishop of Strasbourg in the early 1400s, a venal Bishop who ennobled the children he had through his mistresses.

I descend from a Catholic Bishop of the 1400s, who ennobled his children and set them up well.  To make a long story short, by 1789, my Alsatian-French ancestors had almost no political power and very little property left, BUT they were always staunchly pro-clerical (and very Catholic), and so they fled across the river to Baden during the French revolutionary terror of the 1790s.  My grandmother told me that the main reason for their doing so, was because they were
Catholics - THAT fact had MORE to do with their persecution by the revolutionaries, than their attenuated “aristocratic” ancestry did.

Then around 1848, my great-great-grandfather, Conrad Ditsche (then 30 yrs old), returned from Baden to his ancestral country of France, after the family had been exiled from France for over 50 years - and then, for reasons which I’m still researching (informed by my grandmother’s stories), he openly resisted the coup of Louis Napoleon (Napoleon III), and then in 1851 he found out that he was on a list of dissidents to be arrested.  He and his wife escaped to Philadelphia, instead of being arrested and sent to Algeria like others of his kind were in 1851.

The first time I ever visited Paris, in 1991, it warmed my heart to stand on a bridge bearing an inscription dedicated to Napoleon III, and to think, “nope, you didn’t get all of us, Nappy!  (Nappy Bony AND Nappy III).  Here I am!”

Anyway.  My Grandmother knew this much; she told me stories which I later verified, of how we descended from provincial (and rather poor) aristocracy in Alsace, going back to the first Lord of Diest, Othon de Diest, circa 1050.  (And through that line I am also a remote
nephew of the Queen of Jerusalem c 1100, sorry but I gotta look up her name ;-)

Now, all that said, here comes a WEE bit of a punchline:  my grandmother, whose father was the son of Alsatians, was fiercely and proudly Francophile.  In fact she was quite a Germanophobe (MUCH less so than I am); she was, if anything, a bit TOO determined to say she was
“French and NOT GERMAN!”

Well, I don’t TOTALLY agree with her.  Over 200 years after my ancestors exiled themselves from France to Germany, and now 62 years after WW II, now a time has come when I can say, “I am partly German”, without shame.

But the fact that it WAS shameful to be “German” for most of the past 60 years, is something which should never be forgotten.

Anyway.  I just wanted to share with Mr Coloumbe, my personal story about MY heritage as a (partly) French-American.
And having roots in Alsace is not the least bit inconsistent with claiming French ancestry, or Francophilia.  During the Napoleonic wars, one of Napoleon’s officers complained to him about how the Alsatians didn’t speak French.  (But French was the first langage of my Alsatian ancestors.) Napoleon replied:  “They (the Alsatians) don’t speak French, BUT THEIR BAYONETS DO!” ;-) :-)

At any rate, thank you, Mr Coloumbe, for your reminder of how and why Americans ought to love France, America’s first ally.

And it was quite a paradox for my great-great-grandfather, a descendant of French aristocracy, to rebel against Louis Napoleon and to emigrate to America because (as my grandmother told me), he wanted to live in a “real republic.” But all sons of France (including diasporan sons of France, of whom I am one), understand that France is a paradoxical nation, with a love-hate relationship to traditional authorities both secular and sacred.  And dare I say, THAT is PRECISELY what makes France a historically, deeply, Christian country!
(And not just now, but in the future:  France is “the once and future” country of the defense of Christendom!)

Thus, all American patriots ought to begin taking a closer look at France, and at the eternal virtues of the French.

Joyeux noel, from me to Mr Charles Coloumbe.

Extraordinarily engaging piece M. Coulombe. My gratitude and congratulations.

Another Illinois town that was famously founded by the French was Peoria, the oldest city in Illinois. Peoria was first settled in 1680, when French explorers René-Robert Cavelier, Sieur de La Salle and Henri de Tonti constructed Fort Crevecoeur. These men also discovered the connection between the St. Lawrence river system and Mississippi River system in Northern Illinois and predicted that this would make the area a major transportation hub. This conncetion was the Chicago River and it is why Chicago is such a major city today. Many French names appear in Chicago’s early history as well. Jean Baptiste Pointe Du Sable, Catherine Chevalier, and Antoine Ouilmette among others. And of course the word “Illinois” is a French spelling of an Indian word.

I don’t know how to say it in French but in English it goes, Brevity is the soul of wit!

This is an excellent piece, for a number of reasons. One is that it directs attention to the Francophobia that defines Neocons. Paul Gottfried tends to focus on Neocon bashing of the Nazis and blaming modern Germans as a whole for the Nazi movement. But I have always emphasized that Neocons are more anti-French than anti-German, with the anti-Germna/Nazi being merely the American imperialist version of the English anti-modern German fears of a nation that could defeat it in war. The Francophobia that defines Neocons is, like the anti-modern Germany diatribes, something that is quintessentially English, back to when Normans allowed themselves to lose French as their first language and to embrace Anglo-Saxon Germanic ways of thinking and being.

Most important in the article is the brief discussion of the assimilation of various non-English Catholics to an America defined culturally by the acronym WASP. Whether you were French, Irish, Polish, Bavarian, Italian, Spanish, etc., assimilation to Yankee WASP culture, becoming a good American, cost you most of your invaluable ethno-cultural heritage, which being far more conservative – theologically as well as philosophically - than WASP was necessary to maintaining these United States as a halfway decent place to live in terms other than easy wealth acquisition.

Though it is harder for most to see because of religion and the way we all have been instructed to understand British and American histories, the same basic pattern of assimilation to Yankee-WASPdom and cultural loss defines the primarily culturally Celtic South.

That is a good way to understand that all of us – Scots-Irish Southerners, Irish Catholics, Franco-Americans, Poles, Italians, Russians and Serbs and Greeks (to add the orthodox), etc. – who are not WASP in ethnicity (and/or nor like the Rockefellers: Germanic Protestants who culturally are largely indistinguishable from WASPs) feel deep loss because we are paying the price for a mess of pottage (America’s wealth) that murdered our birthright. We either will recover those heritages and use them to wash ourselves of assimilation to a religiously and philosophically polluted culture (which in its contemporary form has two wings: Neocon and multiculturalist, each of which is decidedly unchristian and self-righteously imperialistic), or we will remain indispensable parts of the problem.

Charles,
A long overdue correction of anti-French ignorance. As an aside, Quebec City and the region north of it are a breathtakingly beautiful respite from our crazed technocratic “culture”. A highly recommended, very affordable trip for those who seek rejuvenation.

On the downside, the band that recorded Degeneration is typical of the nihilists of Quebec. They know they are ill, but revel in refusing any medicine.

That may be changing though as the archdiocese is presided over by Cardinal Ouellet who is leading a vigorous rehabilitation of the Church. Besides B16, he’s our best heavy-hitter and a sign of hope for New France.

Don’t forget Father John Dubois who fled the Terror led by his former schoolmate and came to America where he landed in Havre de Grace MD, and then sailed for Norfolk, Virginia, where he arrived in August 1791. Bishop Carroll, who appointed him pastor in Norfolk and afterward in Richmond, Virginia, warmly received him.
Father Dubois was taught English by Patrick Henry, and lived in the house of James Monroe, the future president. He also, by invitation, used the state capitol in Richmond, for some time, for religious services. He was next summoned by Archbishop Carroll to Frederick, Maryland, exercised the duties of pastor in western Maryland and Virginia, and was for a long time the only priest between Baltimore and St. Louis.

In 1805 he began the building of a college and church at Mount St. Mary’s, in Emmitsburg, Maryland. Mount St Mary’s Seminary celebrates it’s founding in 1808. He also founded my parish in 1807.

He welcomed St Elizabeth Ann Seton and gave his cabin for the use of the sisters until a home could be built for them.

President of Mount St. Mary’s until 1826, he was appointed 3rd bishop of New York where in this post ordained the future St. John Neumann.

Great article. But then say “my loyalty is to my country” America. I think it time to consider America a failed experiment, a failed notion. A man stripped of his culture, is a rootless man. We are all racial creatures and that requires their peculiar culture. For me, with the stuff I am learning now, I am beginning to reject everything American. It is time to go back to the Old Order, to reconstitute the Old Order, “Throne and Altar”.  This is where my loyalty lies--to the Old Order---not to the Novus Ordo of America.  It is a failure, it doesn’t work, and shouldn’t work.  We must all return back to the Old Order.

Charles A. Coulombe is simply the best writer on this site, or at least the equal of Taki himself.  I urge the editor to offer him a blog. (mind you, I’m not saying some of the other writers to be bad).

Only a minor quibble: re the American “specifically anti-French bias”.  We in Dixie fiercely protest the idea that American folkways are New England’s writ large. The Jeffersonian tradition is not Francophobe at all. Indeed, it might be too Francophile.  Francophobia and Anglophila are definitely Hamiltonian.  And if anything is the curse upon America, it is Hamilton.

My own prejudices: Mediterranean Europe is superior to Catholic Mitteleuropa, Catholic Mitteleuropa to Protestant, Protestant Mitteleuropa to Anglo-Celtic Europe—and all four superior to New England writ large.

Actually the reason why France found it hard to colonise the New World en masse was not because France “was a pleasant country few wanted to leave”. It was because it was a feudal society where mayority of the people were serfs tied down to the land of the aristocracy thus unable to emmigrate lest the aristocrats suffer an economic loss.

Charles,

Excellent article. The French in the US and Canada
also seem to build the biggest and sometimes the
best churches. Why, in Manhattan alone there are at least
three established by various French groups: St.Vincent
de Paul, St Jean (pronounced “gene") Baptiste and Notre
Dame near Columbia. All are splendid, although the first faces
closure and perhaps the wrecking ball.

The “Old Order” knew nothing about race.  “Race” is a myth invented by Artur de Gobineau in the 19th Century. It also knew nothing about “nation”, an invention of Herder.  It knew everything about loyalty to a dynasty, a locality, and a church. 

Were Wheeler to be talking about folkways (and folkways have nothing to do with genetics), I’d be more in sympathy with his writeback.  His writeback’s first four sentences have enough truth.

I had a great grand-father who came from Pau,
france. He settled in the duwamish flats, which
has since been transformed into Boeing property.
I have many traits from all my family. I like
to fight which comes from my scottish side. I
like to read which I presume comes from my
german side. What are swedes like?

An enjoyable piece....the Arcadian Abuse by Britain, with New England’s covetous benediction is one of the more sordid tidbits of American History but it did create the Creole culture and so the good comes with the bad, true to form.

I think though that perhaps France should thank the U.S. for their equivocation at Dienbienphu because it laid the groundwork for a French handoff to the U.S. so we could discover what fatal folly it is to fight people like Uncle Ho in mountainous jungles.....particularly when we knew Uncle Ho to recite tidbits from the American Revolution’s documents to his guerillas. Everywhere one cares to look, we can find an Amateur Hour Imperial America blundering like a gored Bull in the septic fields originally installed by France and Britain....sometimes Spain and occasionally Germany. This is not to blame others, it simply heaps more abuse on our own feckless government for willfully ignoring the failures of the past.

I’m not so sure Quebec, at least rural Quebec is as deracinated as you suggest. Asking for directions...courteously and in francopidgen in any of the small towns between Quebec City and Maine is to be treated to a level of laughing hauteur that is only equalled when an overweight Texan impatiently drawls a demanding question at the proprietor of a non-tourist neighborhood patisserie in Paris. One may receive directions but if followed, one becomes more lost than before, generally resulting in arriving back at the same place for a second dose of derision. Not that this is a bad thing, I generally relish the game.

Are you sure you want to claim Fremont? A blowhard of the highest order, bankrolled by wifey’s bloviating papa, galloping about the West in search of his own little empire. Napoleon without brains or ability. His purported successes in the West would have been impossible without the better man who assisted him, Kit Carson. Actually, he is a kind of signature example of the caricatured French you aim to dispel. Until the current Bush came long, he was perhaps the reigning idiot of Republican Political History. Still though, one supposes he is Alexander the Great in comparison to the current demigod, Sir Deeciderensis I, Prince Regent of Connetitexabunkport, holder of any bag given him.

A few comments: My impression is that the garden-variety Frankophobia of Americans has most to do with their WW II collapse and the implication that the collapse was caused by the weakness/degeneracy of the French. Furthermore, the collapse of the Francophone culture in Canada was not due solely by the machinations of that ol’ debbil Anglophone but had the enthusiastic backing of the Francophone cultural and political elite.

The existence of the Franco-Americans deserves to be better known, not least because much American hostility to the French as “cheese-eating surrender-monkeys” and what have you finds no parallel in relation to the much more obvious targets: the Germans, the Italians, and the not very honorably neutral Irish and Swedes. The reason? Simply that everybody knows there to be lots of Americans of German, Italian, Irish or Swedish descent. But who knows about those of French descent? Well, they should know.

<iThat is a good way to understand that all of us – Scots-Irish Southerners, Irish Catholics, Franco-Americans, Poles, Italians, Russians and Serbs and Greeks (to add the orthodox), etc. – who are not WASP in ethnicity (and/or nor like the Rockefellers: Germanic Protestants who culturally are largely indistinguishable from WASPs) feel deep loss because we are paying the price for a mess of pottage (America’s wealth) that murdered our birthright. </i>

Maybe they should have stayed in their own countries then. Oops, I forgot: they made a mess of them or couldn’t be bothered liberating them so they came to a much better run society founded and built by WASPs. But let’s not forget the contributions of Ellis Island immigrants to New England. Who really needed town hall democracy and an active local civil political culture when you could have Tammany Hall, voting by clan, and the Mafia. Then there is the ethnic group, strangely missing from Cantrell’s rant, that led the anti-WASP movement in academia and gave us all those leftist Hollywood movies.

As for anti-French sentiment in 2003, it was pushed by Jonah Goldberg (half Irish of the Catholic kind, half Jewish), Bill O’Reilly (no Mayflower descendants in his family tree), and the bible thumping Southerners who supported George Bush’s crusade and just about every other foreign war dating back to WW1. (Of course, some from Dixie will find some laughable way to blame anti-war New England WASPs for the Southern love of bombing and invading other countries! A gold star to the poster with the most creative way of blaming anybody but their fellow “Southrons").

“Pyhrric” indeed. The French fleet whose timely arrival at Yorktown turned the world upside down sailed off to the Antilles after Washington accepted Cornwallis’ surrender, to the Battle of Les Saintes, where Rodney’s vengeful fleet sent Admiral de Grasse and several thousand other unsung heroes of the American Revolution to the bottom.

Charles,
You might want to consider a consoling possibility:  could it be that the reason for Protestant neoconservatives’ hostility toward the “cheese eating surrender monkeys” is that French Catholics still retain the core ideas of Christianity that American Protestants have lost?

After all, did Christ really teach us to say: “I want Osama bin Laden alive or dead”?  Would Christ ever have said:  “Bring them on”?  Worse still, why did no American Protestant preacher rise an objection when President Bush made these statements?

That they are fiercely attacked by people who call themselves “Christians” does not mean French Catholics’ understanding of Christianity is wrong.

Racialism, in regards to the White race, the Black race, the Asian race, etc., has nothing to do with the “Old Order”.  Those races did not exist.

In the 16th century, the Italian word “razza” was used in regards to types of wine, people with a common occupation (ie, a “race of carpenters").  The use of the word to describe a tribe or nation of people began in the 17th century, with the final, more modern use coming in the 18th century, that of a division among humankind along physical characteristics.

Even after the modern usage of the word became common, one can still read of the “German race”, the “Italian race”, the “English race”, the “Irish race”, etc.

America, being a multi-ethnic society indeed does have a “race problem”.  The fact that all of these different tribes of people have come together and have adopted the same habits, but can not change their physical appearences, provides for a confusing situation.  Historically, people would live their whole lives and never encounter anyone that looked any different than themselves.  If and when contact came with people of different “races”, they were looked upon as being exotic - but to, say, an Irishman of the 14th century, a Russian would be just as “exotic” as an Ethiopian.  Only today, the Russian can dress himself in a modern suit and “pass” for an Irishman, whereas the Ethiopian can not.  Therein lies the “race problem”.

The only way to solve this “race problem” would be for eveyone to go back to their ancestor’s place of origin, and leave America to the descendents of the Natives.  No one is willing to go along with this, for obvious reaons.  So, what is to be done?  The only viable solution is for us to accept that Negroes and Amerindians and the various Asian races look different, physically, than the homogenous looking group of people we call “Whites” today.  Remember that the Irish were once, and still today by many people, were considered an “inferior race”, and were to remain seperate from the superior “English race”.

Does that mean embracing egaltarianism?  If you want to stay in America, or if you want America to stay as it is, then yes.  However, if you choose to leave America, or you wish to roll-back the Revolution that America is, then NO.

Oh, and also, great essay!

Vive la France!

Vive la Monarchie!

Vive le Sacre Coeur!

Vive le Coeur Immacule de Marie!

<<Of course, some from Dixie will find some laughable way to blame anti-war New England WASPs for the Southern love of bombing and invading other countries! A gold star to the poster with the most creative way of blaming anybody but their fellow “Southrons">>

I’ll try for the “gold star”!

The South was populated by an “underclass” not much different from their Northern counterparts - dirt farmers, no slaves, manufacturers, but not on the scale of New England, predominantly Calvinists in their worldview, etc.  Really, by the time of the War Between the States and the Civil War, there just was not much difference between the general population in both countries (North and South).  The major difference was in the leadership of the two countries.

The USofA was controlled by people selected by a majority of the people, and that leadership reflected the people themselves, small farmers, manufacturers, Calvinists, etc.

The South was controlled by a group of people that came to power via a bloodless coup, that is, until the Civil War(s) started, as a direct result of the War Between the States.  For example, the VAST majority of the State of Alabama did not want to secede from the USofA, they had no real fight against the Northern industrialists, and didn’t particularly care to fight for anyone’s Negro slaves.  However, the vote to secede was done county-by-county, and the slave population was included in determining the number of delegates a county could send to the election.  Of Alabama’s 100 counties, only 52 voted to secede, but if a general election were held, the vote would have been overwhelmingly in favor of staying in the Union, and out of the fight, which, at that point was pretty much only between the State of South Carolina and the Union.

So, the South surrendered, and what was left of the old Plantation Culture was DESTROYED by the Reconstruction, and what was left of the old Hillbilly culture was DESTROYED by the Reconstruction.  The South was no more by the end of the 19th century.  Almost the entire population had been Reconstructed into good little Yankees, practicing prohibition, public schooling, and religious fundamentalism, among other nasty Yankee habits.

The Modern South is no longer the Old South, that Old South is dead, and can only be resurrected if the people were to drop their love of Revolution.  Alas, that is not likely - there are not enough counterrevolutionaries in even the West, much less the totally Reconstructed South.

Sorry, but the French are trouble and always have been. From Clovis, who never understood the Christianity he converted to, to Joan of Arc, prototype of modern feminism, to their worthless last king who could be neither generous enough to be loved nor ruthless enough to be feared, to the awful Revolution, to the Paris Commune, to their indispensable role in the mortal wounding of Western Civilization in the Great War, the French have been bad news and one has been best advised to stay as far away from them as possible.

Or, as the indispensable Edmund Blackadder put it: “I hardly think that a nation that eats snails and would go to bed with the kitchen sink if it put on a tutu is in any position to preach couthness.”

Nor anything else.

Glad to see that, on the question of “race”, Mr. Capp is back on track!

Mr/Mrs/Miss Nergol should show the degree of his/her education on France by telling us the name of the last ruling King of France.

Very interesting piece, indeed, and I can relate to much of it as a Frenchman, but I don’t understand the meaning of the concluding sentences at all:

“If ever all of us actually do that, this will be a country worthy of the loyalty, blood, and treasure her various peoples have lavished upon her. Otherwise, she will have nothing to say. In that event, the France that is so despised over here may not be better than America, but she will assuredly be no worse.”

Very useful lecture on a very interestig subject.
Merci Monsieur Coulombe.
I am a French educated (Universite de Strasbourg) Balkan tribesman, brought up to appreciate French (and Russians) and to distrust Muslims (’Turks’) and Catholics (’Latins’).
A Slovene friend of mine (a devout Catholic) told me, after having lived in England for a while, that the best Catholics are those who lived in Protestant countries (’They are so stunned by the Protestant hypocrisy, they
had no choice but to turn towards Christianism’). It took me a while to realize what he meant , and this only after I landed in America.
The catholicism in France was rather tolerant (perhaps because it was on the defensive) and it came as a surprise to me to find Protestants so sectarian.
My first (and last) friends were Irish Catholics with whom I could discuss any subject without animosity or bitterness. Some of them were Liberals, others very Conservative. Anti-Communism (to which I scarcely suscribe now) and Goldwater was the common meeting ground.
The French-Americans whom I met very rarely, although very proud of their origin, were ‘agringados’ beyond recognition. I met some ‘Acadians’ in Louisiana who disappointed me completely by their parfect ignorance of a most rudimentary French (ditto, for those numerous Bretons I met later on, on the Virgin Islands)(made me wonder what they were proud of).
These were the sixties when there was a raging jewish animosity against De Gaule for his disengagement from Israel’s adventurous rampages. I learned then that opposing Israel’s interests in the U.S. represented a ‘rude epreuve’ for anyone who dared do it (and this at the times when the burning of the Stars and Stripes didn’t provoke any particular outrage).
The last France I felt affection for was Jacque Chirac’s ( and his magnificent foreign secretary Villespin).
In the hands of Sarkosy it has sadly become a vulgar french poodle of the Anglo-Saxons.
But, all is never lost with the French, who, unlike Americans, are a rebelious people. They will not tolerate for long anybody’s tutelage- especially not from those they consider culturally inferior.
My favourite French-American, or ‘tout court’ American is, without any doubt -Mike Gravel.

A very interesting piece.  I admire the achievements of New France, and regret how Quebec has tossed aside her Catholic heritage.

I wish I saw signs of hope in Quebec, but I do not.  When I visited Quebec in 2005, I saw more English-language visitors at Ste. Anne de Beaupre than Francophones, and when I went to Sunday Mass in the small town of Perce, on the Gaspe peninsula, I asked several people if they knew when Sunday Mass was, and no one could tell me, since they never went to church at all.  When I finally arrived to Mass, the congregation was tiny, dwarfed by the large and beautiful church.  Very sad.

Sid;

An unfair question, sir - if I gave the correct answer, you’d just accuse me of Googling it.

I will say, however, that that Sofia Coppola movie was an unexpected pleasure…

I live in an Acadian part of the Canada and I can
verify that the Acadians will choose to reject
the sacraments of their Catholic faith if faced
with having to receive them in English as apposed
to the Acadian language. They have rejected their
faith as part of their culture and placed it below
their desire to remain distinct by language only.

A really nice piece - merci. In my family
lineage (the Virginia side) there was
always mention of Monsieur Lafayette,
who was met at Yorktown by my great-
great-great-grandfather, General Cocke.
Lafayette sent a bell from a convent on
one of his estates to Bremo, where it
is duly tolled every 4th of July in
anticipation for the beginning of the
Turtle Race. In return, General Cocke
sent General Lafayette a fine breeding
paid of Virginia Turkeys. Ces amities,
c’est tres bien.

I don’t care where Nergol gets his info.  I want him to get it right.

to their worthless last king who could be neither generous enough to be
loved nor ruthless enough to be feared,<i>

There are many fine things to say about that outstanding land France.  Politics, diplomacy excepted, isn’t one of them. Someone once quipped that constitutions in France are found in library under “periodical Literature”.  One doesn’t go to France for politicians, just as one doesn’t go to Americans for <i>Bilding or good taste, to south Italy for traffic regulations, to the Swedes for tax loopholes, to Saudi Arabia for booze, to Austria to loose weight, to England for chefs, or to the Puritans for sex.

RESCRIPED:

I don’t care where Nergol gets his info.  I want him to get it right.

to their worthless last king who could be neither generous enough to be
loved nor ruthless enough to be feared,

The last reigning king of France was Louis-Philippe of the House of Orleans, who came into power via the Revolution of July 1830, and thus the “July Monarchy”.  The Ultras, later the Legitimists, rejected his legitimacy.  He was removed in 1848.  Whether the attributes that Nergol heaps upon him be true is doubtful.

This means the French had 4 revolutions: June 1789, July 1830, March 1848, and 1870-1.  Maybe also Spring 1968.  France also had a number of take-overs by force: August 1792, July 1794, Dec 1799, June 1814, 1851, 1871, May 1940, and Aug 1944. The crisis of May 1958 wasn’t by force, but it was all the same a fait accompli.

There are many fine things to say about that outstanding land France.  Politics, diplomacy excepted, isn’t one of them. Someone once quipped that constitutions in France are found in library under “periodical Literature”.  One doesn’t go to France for politicians, just as one doesn’t go to Americans for Bilding or good taste, to south Italy for traffic regulations, to the Swedes for tax loopholes, to Saudi Arabia for booze, to Austria to loose weight, to England for chefs, or to the Puritans for sex.

Thank you for a delightful history. The French and Indian War is to much overlooked and wonderfully intricate, massacres and all. My people arrived a little to late to participate but they did make it in time for the revolution and got a section in the Ohio country for their efforts. My Irish ancestors were working folks who delighted in having a roof over their head and food on the table and though none grew rich they lived in communion with the church and community, wrote their books, got in their cups, engaged in fist fights, sent their sons to war, played their music, sang, and danced in a neighborhood known as “Irishtown.”

Asking for directions...courteously and in francopidgen in any of the small towns between Quebec City and Maine is to be treated to a level of laughing hauteur

Me and The Bride have had far different experiences. We have been to Quebec a number of times and we have always been treated wonderfully.

I remember we got lost and I pulled the car over ans stopped in front of a group of about eight teen aged boys.

“They won’t be able to help. They probably only speak French.”

I got out and asked for directions and they spoke amongst themselves in French for a minute or so and then one of them, in perfect English, gave us what proved to be accurate directions.

As we drove off we spoke about what it would have been like had their French-speaking parents been driving in America and asked for directions.

As for the future of France, Catholic Prophecy, issuing from those such as Sr.Bertina Bouquillon and Bartholomew Holzhauser, tells us a great Monarch shall arise in France at the same time a great Saint Pope is chosen and that Republics will be uprooted (Monarchists take heart).

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/index.cfm/title/Trial-Tribulation-And-Triumph/FuseAction/store.ItemDetails/SKU/19145/

For a fascinating look at the development of France after World War I and down to today—and Franco-American relations, do have a look at my wonderful new book, “A Shattered Peace: Versailles 1919 and the Price We Pay Today” [ http://www.ashatteredpeace.com ] ... just out from Wiley !!
Best,
David A. Andelman

@Sid--you’re right about your kings of France. Actually, the
the last of the elder line of French Bourbons, the Comte
de Chambord [recognized by Legitimists as Henri V], died
in 1883), at which point the Orleans branch (descendants of
Louis Philippe), laid claim to the title. However, many
Legitimists and traditionalists refused to accept the
descendants of regicides and defenders of the Liberal
Revolution. Not a few, led by the Comte de Maille and
others, placed their loyalty with Carlos VII (Duque de
Madrid), who then actually became head of the House
of Bourbon. Don Carlos was the Legitimist claimant to the
throne of Spain. Those who argued against his French pretentions cited, I
believe it was, the Treaty of Utrecht that would have
forbade the union of the crowns of Spain and France; but
various legitmists in both countries insisted that that
treaty had fallen into desuetude and that rights of primogeniture
could not be curtailed.

The death of the last direct Carlist male descendant (not
by female descent), Alfonso Carlos I, in 1936, produced
another quandry, for both Spanish AND French legitimists.
The elder line of Bourbon became, de facto, the (liberal)
line of King Alfonso XIII. His heir apparent had been
disqualified for the Spanish throne due to a serious and
debilitating illness (and thus his son Don Juan, and then
Juan Carlos I, inherited the Spanish claims).But Alfonso’s
debilitated son was still able to marry and have children,
of which a son was accepted by French Legitimists!  And
his son now is recognized by French Traditionalist Legitimists
as the rightful inheritor of the Throne of Clovis and
St. Louis!

The Carlists, on the other hand, remained largely split
through the 1940s, ‘50s, and ‘60s, with a majority favoring
the claims of Don Javier de Bourbon-Parma. Others favored
a son of a daughter of Don Carlos VII (with arguments
why the salic law would give way in this case). Don
Javier’s son, Carlos Hugo, turned out to be a Communist
of sorts, and lost Carlist support in the 1970s. And
in the 1980s, all the various Carlist Traditionalist
groups came together in the CTC, the Comunion Tradicionalist
Carlista. The CTC does not officially endorse any
claimant, but rather concentrates on preserving what is
left of Spain’s Catholic heritage, through an extensive
series of schools and camps, a university, political action,
publications and publishing, and various forms of
Catholic action. The question of “who is King” is left
to future generations...after all, the central question
was already answered 2000 years ago: “Christ is King.”

Viva Cristo Rey

Oh, and thanks to Charles Coulombe for a fine essay. I
spend many a wonderful day in the Vendee, in Flavigny,
and in Normandie, while studying in Econe. May Our Lady
of La Salette intercede for us.

And to all on these list,a Merry and Blessed Christmas!

Our Lady of Lourdes pray for us.

As for Our Lady of LaSalette, indeed pray for us, but far be it from us to promote the false part of the message attributed to Mary.

“ROME WILL LOSE THE FAITH AND BECOME THE SEAT OF ANTICHRIST”—Martin Luther: 1540 AD.

Mary is not Luther’s mouthpiece.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0001chap.asp

http://jloughnan.tripod.com/sal_decr.htm

My Uncle, Francis, a LaSalette Priest, used to laugh his head-off whenever he heard that “message.”

“Yup. That was Jesus’ plan. He established his church as the Pillar and Ground of Truth and said He who hears you hears me and then Jesus turned the Church over to the AntiChrist so zillions of Catholics would follow the AntiChrist Pope into Hell.”

Sadly, that lie is one peddled in the SSPX Schismatic Lefevbre Cult because that was what Lefevbre told them to, partially, justify his perfidy.

@Spartacus:
I NEVER quoted the false part of the message, nor
did I intend to. Please don’t put those words into
my mouth.

I did wish you a Merry and Blessed Christmas, so please
your various attacks notwithstanding, I don’t intend
to get into ANOTHER shouting match with you on the
subject of the Society of St. Pius X. That is NOT what
this thread is about. It is about France, French history,
and French culture, and that’s where it should remain.

Needless to say, you and I have
some fundamental disagreement as to (1) whether the
SSPX is schismatic or not, (2) about the theological
“note” of Vatican II (and its praxiological results),
(3) about what Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre said or taught
(and I was present in Econe from 1975-80), and (4)abouth the Church’s teaching, specifically on Religious tolerance.

I ask you, this Christmas season, NOT to get into another
frenzy on this topic. There is NOTHING that you can say
that will bring me to your point of view, so please don’t
even try. Please respect the fact that we do differ,
and that I believe firmly in the Church and am not
a sedevacantist. Okay? Oremus pro invicem....

Can we just leave it at that, and return to the topic
of this thread? Please?

I shall not respond to any future attacks on the SSPX.
If you wish to contact me off site, we can debate or
discuss to your heart’s content...but NOT here.

And, once again, despite our difference, let me wish
you a Blessed and Holy Christmas, and may Our Blessed
Lord shower you with grace...and indeed, that
goes for all on this list.

I NEVER quoted the false part of the message, nor did I intend to. Please don’t put those words into my mouth.

I didn’t. I just took the opportunity to correct a lie frequently spread on the net.

I did wish you a Merry and Blessed Christmas,

And I wish you the same right back.

That is NOT what this thread is about. It is about France, French history,and French culture, and that’s where it should remain.

Mr. Cathey. It was you who raised Our Lady of LaSallette. I didn’t realise I need your permission to address one particularly false and malign lie attached to it.

You know, others in the world exist besides you. Consider the possibility I wrote what I did so that everyone could read it. As to why you thought what I wrote was personally addressed to you and only you is your problem.

I ask you, this Christmas season, NOT to get into another frenzy on this topic.
There is NOTHING that you can say
that will bring me to your point of view, so please don’t
even try.

Mr. Cathey. Lighten-up and stop being so sensitive. I took the opportunity of your mentioning Our Lady of LaSallette to kill a lie about it. I did not accuse you of spreading that lie. It is quite clear that Lefebvre did spread that lie though - even during his schismatic act.

1988 CONSECRATION SERMON
by Archbishop Lefebvre

Of course, you well know the apparitions of Our Lady at La Salette, where she says that Rome will lose the Faith, that there will be an “eclipse” at Rome; an eclipse, see what Our Lady means by this.

l not respond to any future attacks on the SSPX.

Gosh. I guess that deprives me of any motivation to confront the schismatic cult publicly :).

Look, Mr. Cathey, you have got to grow some thicker skin. Stop thinking everything is about you.

I have a Confirmational Duty and Promise to discharge. The fact I derive so much joy from doing it is just another one of the many Blessings bestowed upon me by Our Lord and Saviour. (Maybe there was a purpose in my heritage being Irish-Algonquin)

If you wish to contact me off site, we can debate or discuss to your heart’s content...but NOT here.

Mr. Cathey. When apt, I will correct the lies of the sspx schism. When I do that please note that I am addressing you personally only when I use your name.

I have no desire to personally hurt your feelings and I do wish you and yours a Merry Christmastide

@Spartacus:
I think you misinterpret my message a bit.

You are certainly free to write whatever you please,
but it is that on those occasions that I, a self-identified
supporter of the SSPX, have written, that you seem to go into
something of a whirlwind about the SSPX and Archbishop
Lefebvre. I am not the only one on this list who has
noticed that.

Let me assure you that I have a very thick skin and that
nothing you can say, no barbs or attacks, will hurt my
feelings. For a number of years I was on a debating team, and
indeed have lived most of my life in an atmosphere where
debate and discussion are de rigueur. My point, very
simply, was that this thread is NOT the place for an
extended theological discussion between you and me. Please be
assured that I am not at all wary of debating/discussing
the topic with you, just not on a thread about France.

Lastly, my feelings are in no way hurt by what you say.
As I pointed out, we have some fundamental differences.
If anyone is interested I could also cite numerous web
addresses, scholarly articles, and books written that
defend Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX. A google search
for the Society of St. Pius X will offer a lot of results
and the website has literally hundreds of articles and
studies that may be read and/or downloaded.

I thank you for your Christmas good wishes, and let
me reciprocate, and may Our Blessed Lady intercede for
us both.

A great article which weaves together disparate parts of French history in America. It tells us why things are the way they are today in America but surprisingly seems to stir more nostalgia in the comments than it should.

Knowing your roots is a great strength and certainly helps looking at things more objectively and intelligently. But the beacon is behind us and should help looking forward not backward.

The Neo-cons are irrelevant ideologues who thrive on half-baked theories born out of ignorance. Their hatred for the French and French culture should be sneered at.

In 10 years “French Fries” or “Freedom Fries” will be written in Chinese characters by people who couldn’t care less about the distinction. Then the wavelets of Franco-American discord will be swept away by a cultural tsunami which will have far more consequences for our lives than what happened 200 years ago although it will probably be similar in scale.

“To win the war, know thy enemy”, The Chinese do. If all the focus of attention of the Neo-cons is the irritating French, ungrateful Iraqis and the likes then good look America. (Hasta luego in California) The country is toast.

18:14. For while all things were in quiet silence, and the night was in the midst of her course,

Cum enim quietum silentium contineret omnia et nox in suo cursu medium iter haberet

18:15. Thy Almighty word leaped down from heaven from thy royal throne, as a fierce conqueror into the midst of the land of destruction,

Omnipotens sermo tuus de caelo a regalibus sedibus durus debellator in mediam exterminii terram prosilivit

Brother, Boyd. All the best fights are twixt brothers. And outside the cave the Ox and the Donkey butt heads.

And then they enter into the cave to silently adore Our Lord and Saviour and leave the fight outside.

Of course I know I am right and I love that you think you are right and I can not explain to those who witness our battle the joy we both derive from it.

But He who is our Creator, Redeemer, and Saviour loves the fact we love enough to fight.

Far be it from us to be pacific over divisive issues.

Brother. Have a Blessed Christmastide and in the New Year we will step back into the rhetorical ring to duke it out until He comes in Glory to say “I am not Spartacus was right all along”

Once again I thank Charles Coulombe for a superb “window\”
on France and Quebec. It occasions all sorts of thoughts
and ruminations.

I think most of us would agree that the ravages of
“political correctness” have advanced much further in
most of Europe than in the United States, and France,
certainly, has not been exempt from such madness. From
the infamous “Law Gayssot” to the unhealthy mass immigration
of millions of Islamic underclass into the “metropole,”
many signs indicate the extent of the rot. Yet, also, in France,
as well as in other European nations, there is a healthy
reaction, at least politically. Although the Front Nationale
did not fare that well in the recent national election, its
message was, in some part, coopted by the victorious
Sarkozy. (I don’t think Sarkozy will be much of an improvement
over previous French leaders, but the fact that he had
to pay attention to issues like immigration, crime, and
national indepedence, is in itself significant.)

Perhaps more interesting is the greater success of the
Swiss Peoples Party, led by Christoph Blocher, which is
now the largest grouping in the Confederatio Helvetica. Once
again, the SVP is more or less anti-EU, opposed to mass
in-migration, and in favor of maintaining Swiss identity
and independence in the face of the Bruxelles bureaucrats.

In Austria the Freedom Party (FPO) and significant groupings
in Denmark and Norway, not to mention Poland, have been
active in this same process.

Of course, with the process of managerial, statist control
so far advanced, it remains a good question if ANYTHING
these movements do will succeed in breaking the hold
the EU bureaucrats maintain.

Still, there is always hope that historic and Christian
Europe will somehow awake from this nightmare, and remember
its heritage, its true heritage and who helped form it
---Clovis, Charlemagne,St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Charles V, St. Pius V, Lepanto,
King John Sobieski, the Knights of St. John/Malta, and so many others....

With all due respect to the many above commenters whose comments are fascinating and instructive to me, I just want to mention that this thread would be a lot more truly French if we talked more about beautiful women.

(QED, I am a true son of France!  :-)

I thank Boyd Cathey for his remarks on Royalism in France and Spain.  Just as I have urged Charles Coulombe to come out with an English Charles Maurras Reader, so I plead with Boyd Cathey to publish the The Carlist Reader, inasmuch as Carlist literature in English is just about has hard to get as a good translation of the Rig Veda.  Also Boyd Cathey should submit a good article to the editor of this website on Carlist thought.  I myself would like to know more about the four points of >i>Dios, Patria, Fueros, and Rey</i>. (A League of the South sympathizer might have some appreciation for Fueros.)

Meanwhile, you Jacobites out there need to make yourself known!  Real Authentic Conservatism is enriched by its two wings, the Blanc wing of Royalism, and the “Blue” wing of Tory Burkeanism. (Yes, Burke started out a Whig, but had a divorce from Whigism after 1790.)

Thanks again to Boyd Cathey for making writebacks what they should be!  A merry and holy Christmas to him and to all!

• Defining French heritage in terms exclusive to catholicism while ignoring the importance of the protestant Huguenots is something akin to defining air with out hydrogen.

• Dienbienphu had little to do with American air support and much to do with strategic military incompetence on the part of the armed forces.

• “One of the problems facing the Kings of France, Spain, and Portugal in the 17th and 18th centuries was that, unlike the British Isles, their countries were very pleasant to live in.”

In fact it was during the umpleasantness of the Catholic persecution of French Calvanists that my ancestors fought for the English and secured land in Virginia for their efforts — two generations before the Royal Proclamation of 1763.

etc…

I can now see how rough it has been for the French here.  I thought my Danish ancestors had it rough.  Beautiful women and handsome men trying to bring civilization and fine pastry to a benighted wilderness.  My late grandmother told me the old family stories about moving cross country in a wagon, shaped like a sweet roll, pulled by a team of oxen.  Life was tough out in the Midwest, but by dint of agricultural and culinary skills, they tamed the land.

Merry Christmas Everyone!

@ Sid,
Thank you for the good words and the urging!

I’ve been toying with translating some Spanish traditionalist
writings, but thus far haven’t had the time. Perhaps in
the future.

And, let me wish you a particularly warm Tar Heel, Old
South, AND traditional Catholic Christmas...and I add
my friends John Ball, Bede, Tom Buggeln, Charles Salvo,
Woody Jones, and so many others to those wishes.

Back atchya, Dr Cathey, my friend.  And meanwhile, by the way, if you happen to find in your possession a 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent, then please give it to me
(a passionate numismatist), because you don’t want any graven images of Abraham Lincoln in your house, do you?
HAHAHAHA!  :-)
(In fairness, I’ll do a trade with you for that coin; I’ll trade a 20 dollar Confederate note.  HA!  :-)

As I spent the first half of my life in New England, I had some exposure to the French Canadians of New England. My Francophobic attitude did not come from my contact with New Englanders of French Canadian descent. My Francophobic attitude from exposure to the French:  as a tourist in South America, as a contract engineer for a French company in South America, and from having had a French roommate in the US. I have heard from others who have worked with or for French companies, be they US citizens or Latin Americans, who have had the same reaction to the French that I had: aloof and/or arrogant.
An example follows of the gap between French and American society, from French tourists in South America with whom I got along fairly well. A French woman, who was not aloof and arrogant to me, informed me that French friends who had hitchhiked around the US had been invited to the homes of some of the drivers who had picked them up hitching. This was also my experience as a hitchhiker from that epoch. The French woman informed me that there was something sick about Americans, that they would be so friendly to a stranger to invite them to their homes. So much for the frontier spirit. At the same time, greater reserve towards strangers compared to Americans- of both continents- is not merely a French trait, but a European trait.

Hey...what alot of opinions.  Anyway I am an old (elder) Franco-American. Acadie (first generation, Quebecois, (second). Good to read...MLB