And it is “worse than a crime, it was a blunder”.  If the Neocons were at least competent - there are people who know how to fight 4th generation war, instead of wanting to “shock and awe” to create thousands of insurgents every few months, we might have even succeeded.

Unfortunately between their set of goals, and the weapons we have, they cannot succeed.  Fighting 4th generation war doesn’t need carriers or B2 bombers or anything expensive to give to defense contractors.  Even the Blackwater mercenaries and the hollywood facades which pass for rebuilt infrastructure are failures in everything except for their owner’s stock portfolio.

If you wonder what the Maginot line would look like transposed from a fixed, defensive system to a mobile, offensive system, look toward the middle east.  Undefeatable, but irrelevant as it is easily bypassed.

Someone once said the way to defeat Islam was to introduce their teens to Brittney Spears.  Given the recent history it would have backfired, but introducing the insurgents to Lockheed would probably work - instead of the swarm, a few five thousand pound, several million dollar IEDs which can take out a whole line of humvees, but can’t be moved to the targets.

And supporters of Israel should ask themselves, after the US has exhausted itself in futile empire-building efforts and police actions, and is morally, spiritually, and monetarily bankrupt (I know, but we have not actually declared it yet, nor have the debt collectors started hounding us), will Israel be safer without the possibility of support from the US?

But assume we retain our military might after the collapse.  Weimar was not a threat to the Jews, but it was pressed into bankruptcy.  What may follow our collapse might be equally unfriendly.  At some point of power concentrated in the unitary executive won’t need support from anyone including AIPAC.  And at that point they can not merely ignore Israel, but actually enslave it.  (The senator who would be Frau Chancellor whose name lacks the “t” comes to mind - who wanted to give everyone health care, but the actual proposal mentioned “prison” far more often than “hospital")

The comment by James Dorrance exactly illustrates Taki’s point. As President Carter discovered,too, if one speaks or writes the truth about Jewish actions, and there is even a hint of criticism, the accusations of ‘anti-Semitism’ come thick and shrill. Such reaction is pathetic and immature.

Now that AIPAC, the ADL and the media
have very clearly pointed out to me
just WHO are the anti-semites in
America, I’ve realized for the fist time
that its not such a bad word afterall!

willb

The vicious failed neocon plan lost the middle east and now the Americans are going to have to live with it.  Bush and his neocon mob are not innocent.  we need to take them to court put them in jail

I can agree with you on some points in your dialogue here, but your interpretation of history is much akin to “monday-morning quarterbacking.” You agreed with Germans being tried for war-crimes, and that Russians “should have swung too.” But you also called for US and British men to hang for the air attacks on Dresden—that, sir, was an act of combat against an enemy in wartime. It is so easy for you to look back and judge such regrettable but necessary acts like that and say “oh what evil men we were” but you are here today engaging in this feel-good drivel precisely because these men did the dirty work of bringing down the Third Reich. Your words, in retrospect, are a testament to the victory your grandfathers won for you: they secured a world of unprecedented comfort for you, a safe world of such ease and wealth that you can take the time to thoroughly scrutinize every act of war as wrong. Had you been on the receiving end of a German machine gun built in Dresden or Hannover, you would feel quite differently.

I am in agreement on the Iran situation. But please, readers of this blog, please wake up: the world is a dangerous and ugly place. While certainly our most noble endeavor is to be the best human being we can be, a “realpolitik” realization that there are evil men in this world who need to be confronted (I’m talking about Al-Qaeda here) is necessary. I understand these comments have veered from the article’s main point, and my apologies.
Dresden was a necessary but ugly act. Had one of your children been in uniform at the time you too, would have agreed. Please wake up and “welcome to the jungle,” as an American rock star put it a decade and a half ago.

Maybe someone else can explain it to me, but why is Giuliani in that list of neocon pundits and Bush administration warmongers in the second paragraph?

Buchanan has a bit of a split personality. He has written very
detailed and well thought out criticisms of the war from the beginning.
Not many thinkers have done better. Go read his archive
at antiwar.com. I suspect Buchanan thinks he can still be influential
in the Republican party. So he tries not to burn that bridge. I think
he is wrong about this but anybody can read his articles and see
where he stands and where he stood on the war. This is a far better
cry than nearly all Democrats. Maybe Russ Feingold as an exception.
The Democrats have done nothing but cower to Bush’s war propaganda.
They are all cowards. Hillary and Obama and Thier bomb them harder
rhetoric during the Lebanon fiasco. Obama and his hanging Durbin out
to dry for opposing the Guantanamo torture. Just who the hell are you
proposing Taki back? I’d take Buchanan...easily over nearly all
Democrats and Republicans...a few notable exceptions like Chuck Hagel
and Russ Feingold. All the others supported this war at the beginning.
Pat did not. Give credit where credit is due Mr. Hoffman.

“Dresden was an ugly but necessary act” So , it was necessary to bomb a city swollen with refugees, with no really important military targets?  What a load of crap! ! I suppose

The planners of trhe assault on Dresden should have been hung too. There was no reason to bomb Dresden except to kill as many Germans as possible and, like Hamburg, terrorize the population

So ‘Disgusted Moderate’ tells us that Dresden was a “necessary act”. What he and too many others accept is the killing of millions because a very few men decided that war was the only option. The German people didn’t start WWII anymore than Americans started the Iraq war.  Wars are started and innocents are killed because a relatively few men are Amoral. Only when the many ‘Disgusted Moderates’ come to understand that war is always an evil answer, will wars end.

Latest post in POLITICAL ESSAYS:

Murderation In Middletown

at

http://www.xanga.com/jaspar2002us

In the interests of conservatism and fiscal integrity, where most of the debate in Washington centers on Iraq and Israel and US matters are discussed infrequently, I think our politicians should receive their salaries from Israel and the Iraqi oil tycoons.

Are the Neocons criminals or basically opportunists, who connived and manipulated a willing and racist America to carry out the latest western pogrom against the Muslim world?  While the Neocons are certainly vile, detestable, arrogant and xenophobic, America needs to take a good long look at herself and ask how is it that a small group of fanatics with very powerful moneyed friends could take over the two largest political parties and dictate policy that is against the best interests of the vast majority of the American people.  The deaths of 650,000+ Iraqis does not only belong to George Bush but belongs to every American who either cheered for war or was to afraid to stand against war when it was so conveniently popularized by the Neocon owned media, judiciary, and legislature.

To get rid of the Neocon menace, America needs a very serious and complete makeover. Maybe the TRUTH will set us free.  No blood for Israel.

Very very few of the neo-conservates are elected officials.  Many have been hired through out-sourcing governmental projects.  Kagan is now becoming the poster boy for the neo-consevatives so the likes of Perle, Wolfowitz and their ilk can get off the front page news.  One media tactic after another.

Our elected officials are responsible in the first and final analysis.  Yes, the neo-conseratives should be put on trial for their deliberate self-serving ideas.  AND SO SHOULD THE ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO BOUGHT THEIR PROPOSALS AND PLANS.

Murder of innocents, on purpose, to extract an unconditional surrender from an enemy is evil
no matter if
1) they hit us first
2) you can imagine some horrible post war consequences if we don’t.
3) we behaved beneficently after the war
4) The enemy is really bad.
5) Great benefits can be imagined, including saving our own lives or even that of the nation,
for having committed mass murder (not collateral damage) but purposeful mass murder, to cause
an enemy to kneel and offer unconditional surrender.

‘Malum in se’ is what we are talking about in the strategic bombing of Tokyo and the A-bomb drops, because they were not collateral damage. They were purposeful mass murder of open defenseless cities, with the intention of killing as many as it took to extract an unconditional surrender from a nation already suing for peace. After the war, many Catholics
agreed with this position, but sadly the passage of time has left the savages to write the history and mythology about strategic bombing in WWII. Ask Ike, Ask Admiral Lehey, Ask McArthur, all ashamed of what we did. But the barbarians write the history, and the real warriors die with quotes lost on dusty bookshelves.

To commit a sin and become contrite is one thing, but to commit a sin, and hold the behavior up as an example for how to conduct foreign policy as an exemplary model- not contrite but embracing the sin with the promise to sin again in like manner- well that kind of stain on the nation is what we are dealing with. So what we did was evil. Thats one level. But now, we have a national
resolve, in the press and in both parties, that the behavior was not only honorable, but worth of duplication in our conduct of foreign policy. Is is the second level of sin that concerns me the most. A country has a historical position, and its not infinite. Rome, and all such political entities have a beginning and an end. What will the writers of history say in 1000 years about the current empire? We were the first to use atomic weapons in war, not in self defense either, and we brag about it. Curtis Lemay said “ when properly kindled, the Japanese cities will be made to burn like autumn leaves”. May God have mercy on us if we are ever on one knee to a self righteous enemy.  It’s not too late to save our national sole, but the time is well advanced before we seize an opportunity to prove the stain is permanent and part of our legacy before God.

You libertarians and “true” conservatives are quite in denial about who (you vs. Democrats) are
the more politically enabling force for the War Party. Democratic voters as a group in the most
fervent frothing for war still poll majority anti-war. Your groups “hold your nose and vote Republican”
while the elected Republicans can’t vote even 20% against a conflict that has and will continue to fail abysmally
and is wildy unpopular with the electorate.

My state - not a single senator or rep voted to give the president war authority for Iraq.

You bitch about Democrats being the same as Republicans when it comes to enabling conflict,
then you fawn over Buchanan who endorses friggin Bush who gets re-elected because he’s
such a good War president.

There’s no Dennis Kucinich’s or Bernie Sanders in the Republican party. Go ahead and vote your
conscience on minimum wage and welfare, but don’t bore us with your self serving delusions about my party being just as responsible for the thousands of mangled humans that the party you most often vote with seems to have a blind eye for.

as the Bush administration’s war crimes pile up & yes up to the sky it I have a feeling that at some point someone may actually notice. In a country that considers itself free, but iis not free to smoke in their favorite bar-- it is still a crime to kill more that a hundred thousand people in an attack which was accomplished by forgery, lies & done in a conspiracy to exploit the resources of the victim(s).  Like a previous poster noted, when the full impact of this crime come home to roost, we can only hope that the government of the time and its citizens find room to treat these fifth column perpeTRATORS with the kindness they never showed to others.

Can’t seem to get my messages posted

Congress should make the AIPZC
REGISTER AS A FOREIGN AGENT FOR THE
State of Israel.

Neo-con is a code word for jews nowadays.
Throw in a couple of Cheneys, Rumsfelds and Gulianis to mix it up,
but the thruth is that the now that the American left is wakking from its slumber
they look for scapegoats and to point fingers
I wouldnt blame the AIPAC or Israel, they are doing what they think is right
but I feel that we as American have failed to look after OUR BEST INTEREST
Maybe its time to take a page out of their playbook.

I dare say the Democrat’s obsession
with Iraq is just a smokescreen to avoid the
real horror - an impending invasion of Iran. 
And nobody in the government or the media is talking
about it.  Not Pelosi, not, Hatcher, not John
Murtha.

If the Democrats succeed in extracting us
from Iraq - it is only because they intend to send
our boys to Iran.  They need human capital and
our children are it.

Every hear of a Texas Congressman named “Ron Paul,” John D.?  Nah, didn’t think so.

When Afghanistan was attacked,Osama BinLaden said “ Every American is a legitimate target to kill”.
This is atrocious and shocking. Islam prohibits the killing of innocents. Osama was looking to
Muslims to respond.The neocons responded to make this vision a reality.

The world now is a more dangerous place for all with the atrocities of torture in Guantanamo,Iraq
and Afghanistan.

The destruction of Dresden at thw end of the war was a criminal act. The city population was doubled with 500,000 refugees. Even Churchill was embarrased and said afterwards more targets of a military nature should be found. My then 24 year old mother walked her baby, me, through the city a few weeks after those bombings. She said you could smell the place from miles away, ‘the flies were as large as sparrows’ she said. It seems it was done to impress Stalin and let him know Britain and America had one hell of an Airweapon up their sleeve. To impress this barbarous, wizened dwarf they murdered over 100,000 women and children. They should have swung at Nuremberg along with the other criminals.

I love your statement that “the United States has no right to use nuclear weapons except in response to a nuclear attack.” That’s very funny!

Gentlemen, you are the ones who are so above all this amoral warfare and all that icky real life stuff. If you would peer out from behind your moccachino and tune down the NPR, and perhaps actually read some history, you might find that yes, most Germans were in line with Hitler’s thought. The “July 20th” men were actually quite few in number, with their own agenda. You gentlemen are just typical of the dumbed-down media-hype generation. Because you saw something on the History Channel you’re now an expert.

Furthermore, it strikes me that any defense of state-monopolized violence—eg, interstate warfare as deemed necessary for one state’s survival against another intent on unrivalled hegemony—is to be labeled a fascist warmonger. So that’s what Patton, Eisenhower and all them were, huh? With 60 years of hindsight and ample time to see it all from the tv screen in your living room, oh what barbarians those guys were. My goodness, I respect your antiwar feelings and views, but do you believe in anything other than your own personal well-being? Is this our end-state? A country of men who believe in nothing?

Sad times, indeed. France too, believed in not putting up a fight, and look where it got them: four long and dark years of rape by the Third Reich.

Our lives are so super-safe (that is unfortunately coming to an end, and I weep for my kids’ future) and so luxurious that we deem any brute who might join any organization bigger than himself as a lesser creature, to be pitied (think our military). Certainly, you could never do that, what an atrocious waste of time.

Typical American short-sightedness. Oh, it’s such an old story.

In the list of crminel of war you must add : Churchill and Bomber Harris. I am a white african, born in Algiers, and cannot forget that the US gov helped the arab muslim terrorists of the FLN in their guerilla war. I told 2 US “journalists” on 6th July 1962 after the massacre of Oran where close to 3000 europeans were butchered in 5 hours, and were laughing about it, that one day it will be your turn. So when 911 happened some of my people did not really felt sorry for you. The US gov is the greatest murderer of war in history, and so is the US army. As for AIPAC, the joke in Europe is like this “Guess what is the largest occupied territory by Israel” and the answer is of course: “USA”.

“The German people didn’t start WWII anymore than Americans started the Iraq war.  Wars are started and innocents are killed because a relatively few men are Amoral.
Posted by bob fearn on Feb 21, 2007.

Ahh, a true pacifist. You are correct in that The German populous was not the initiator of WWII. But what does that matter when Germany took, Poland, Czechoslovakia, France......etc. What does that matter when the systematic extermination of the Jews was in full vigor? War is indeed ugly. But let’s not pretend that Germany held most of Europe solely on the backs of a few amorals. Did the Dresden bombings precede the bombings of London? Was Churchill merely throwing his weight around, unprovoked? Was the United States a happy entrant into WWII or were they provoked by Japan?

People die in wars, nearly all innocents in your estimation. These unfortunate events, Dresden, Hiroshioma, brought a quick closure to a war that was not declared by but declared upon. The fault of the death of innocents lies with Germany and Japan, and no others.

Can’t get my messages posted either. Guess it hasn’t been “edited for clarity” yet.

Taki wrote:
“Nuking a nation that does not possess them, and has not attacked us, is in fact a war crime—the kind of crime for which we rightly hanged the Nazis at Nuremberg. (What a pity that we couldn’t have swung the Russians, too—and perhaps the Brits and Americans who ordered bombings like Dresden.)”

So, Germany, who was successfully conquering Europe and sytematically exterminating the Jews in WW II, along with their allies in Japan were the victims? Take away the Russians , the Brits and the USA and we wouldn’t be having this discussion, at least not in English anyway.

To BF & V:

Gentlemen, you are the ones who are so above all this amoral warfare and all that icky real life stuff. If you would peer out from behind your moccachino and tune down the NPR, and perhaps actually read some history, you might find that yes, most Germans were in line with Hitler’s thought. The “July 20th” men were actually quite few in number, with their own agenda. You gentlemen are just typical of the dumbed-down media-hype generation. Because you saw something on the History Channel you’re now an expert.

Furthermore, it strikes me that any defense of state-monopolized violence—eg, interstate warfare as deemed necessary for one state’s survival against another intent on unrivalled hegemony—is to be labeled a fascist warmonger. So that’s what Patton, Eisenhower and all them were, huh? With 60 years of hindsight and ample time to see it all from the tv screen in your living room, oh what barbarians those guys were. My goodness, I respect your antiwar feelings and views, but do you believe in anything other than your own personal well-being? Is this our end-state? A country of men who believe in nothing?

Sad times, indeed. France too, believed in not putting up a fight, and look where it got them: four long and dark years of rape by the Third Reich.

Our lives are so super-safe (that is unfortunately coming to an end, and I weep for my kids’ future) and so luxurious that we deem any brute who might join any organization bigger than himself as a lesser creature, to be pitied (think our military). Certainly, you could never do that, what an atrocious waste of time.

Typical American short-sightedness. Oh, it’s such an old story.

To BF & V: Gentlemen, you are the ones who are so above all this amoral warfare and all that icky real life stuff. If you would peer out from behind your moccachino and tune down the NPR, and perhaps actually read some history, you might find that yes, most Germans were in line with Hitler’s thought. The “July 20th” men were actually quite few in number, with their own agenda. You gentlemen are just typical of the dumbed-down media-hype generation. Because you saw something on the History Channel you’re now an expert. Furthermore, it strikes me that any defense of state-monopolized violence—eg, interstate warfare as deemed necessary for one state’s survival against another intent on unrivalled hegemony—is to be labeled a fascist warmonger. So that’s what Patton, Eisenhower and all them were, huh? With 60 years of hindsight and ample time to see it all from the tv screen in your living room, oh what barbarians those guys were. My goodness, I respect your antiwar feelings and views, but do you believe in anything other than your own personal well-being? Is this our end-state? A country of men who believe in nothing?
Sad times, indeed. France too, believed in not putting up a fight, and look where it got them: four long and dark years of rape by the Third Reich. Our lives are so super-safe (that is unfortunately coming to an end, and I weep for my kids’ future) and so luxurious that we deem any brute who might join any organization bigger than himself as a lesser creature, to be pitied (think our military). Certainly, you could never do that, what an atrocious waste of time.Typical American short-sightedness. Oh, it’s such an old story.

This is what I have never understood - why Mutual Assured Destruction wasn’t a deterent in WW@. Even when its cities were firebombed, germany did not use WMD’s in his V-2 (nerve gas warheads were discovered after the war - remembering no one knew it existed) Hitler saved 50 million lives by this act (the moral ‘democracy’ brags about how it will turn any country into a parking lot if it is attacked by WMD’s. Why would a madman dictator be more decent than a democratic leader?
the ‘official’ version is that he knew he couldn’t win and the allies would ‘exterminate germans. But why would a ‘madman’ care?  He didn’t even kill POW’s in retaliation.  The answer is that democracy just doesn’t tolerate any point of view except democracy. Saddam Hussein (who was hanged because he used WMD on ‘his own people’. So why didn’t even Saddam use weapons of mass destruction against the invading Americans? He was hanged anyway. No doubt, the allies would have loved to hang Mr. Hitler for not using WMD’s against them as well. Were these two men total schizophrenics then? Killing their own people (jews and kurds) ruthlessly, without conscience, but having second thoughts about what the world would be like after their defeat and death? No, somethings screwy here. It just don’t add up. Democracy believes (and several adherents on this site have said as much) ‘the end justifies the means’. These two dictators apparently believed , ‘the end do not justify the means’. What made me wonder about this a brief video bite at the start of the invasion of Iraq. A soldier was trying to ‘explain’ democracy to a young iraqi schoolboy and why the invasion was necessary. “In a democracy, explained he soldier, you can vote for whoever you want to vote for - that’s why we are here!” The little boy looked puzzled and then beamed, “Can we vote for Saddam Hussein?” The soldier said, “Yes, even Saddam Hussein - then looked up at his ‘minder shaking his head off camera - er - no- you won’t be able to vote for Saddam Hussein - just the parties that believe in democracy” The little boy, like myself was perplexed and I remain so.

Yo Tom,I read this guy “Taki” all the time. He was born in Greece and is/was an International plyboy and at times very funny. Also very direct.

AIPAC and the Neocons should not be allowed to have the unfettered power to intimidate our politicians and responsible government bureaucrats. They are extremely dangerous to this country’s welfare. They are indeed the most hated people on the face of the earth, and this moronic country buys their propoganda and cowers when comments are made against them. I might add that as a former SOG Special Forces officer in Vietnam, I am knowledgeable in combat affairs and contest the invincibilty of the Isrealis especially without US weapons systems… once again Hezbollah kicked their asses in close combat.

Look at bush in the school when he is told of the first strike.  Look mat bush when he is told of the second strike.  He just sits there, and doen nothing.  Look at the video of the first strike(firemans video), frame by frame-- What do you see Check out the second strike, use the CNN video-- again go frame by frame, what do you see??  At the Pentagon, the government gives us the video taken by the camera used to catch parking cheats, which is about 18 inches off the ground.  What do they have to hide???  That 911 was an inside job??  That the plane that “hit” wasn’t a 767 at all?  Next they take habous corpus, jury trials and Torture kidnapping forced dissappearences?  One can only wonder what they would like to accomplish next??  Actually we know, they want to attack Iran.  Jonn Bolton was “Mr. attack Iran in person.  The man could barely utter a sentence without Iran being involved They want all the “rogue oil” & now I believe they did 911 to further that quest

Sometimes truth is crazier than fiction. What if Hitler was an ultimate NeoCo.  Afterall, he attacked only white, Christian nations, while taking the Jewish people outside of cities which could be bombed more easily. Ths was trly a war between White Christian nations, while the grandfather of GW banked Hitler. How come no one thinks or sees such a clear set of facts? 

What can turn an anti-semite into a philo-semite?  When th worst of the antisemites attacks the “lesser” anti-semites.  It takes only one nation to be turned into bad anti-semites, so they can beat up the rest and turn them into philo-semited..  Itis funny if not so serious. 

WWII was a war between anti-semites on all sides.  Excet the worst anti-semites turned the lesser anti-semites into philo-semites.

Bin Laden is now doing the same job, by the turning the World against Islam and in favor of Israel, once it is well established that Israel is a co-victim with the rest of the World.  If you begin to think twice about not siding with israel or think about building militias, you may have 911 arrangedfor ou to brin gyou back into the right box.

Well… what say you?

One of your readers posted that “while the nazis were

successfully exterminating the jews” Oh? If that had eeen

been true we wouldn’t be in the pickle we are in now”

There would be no AIPAC, no war.”

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