Pulling the Trigger on Iran

Posted by Patrick Foy on April 25, 2007

The casus belli for “Operation Iraqi Freedom”, the invasion of Iraq, was a fraud. We know that now. Even though there was no threat whatever to the United States from Iraq, the decision was made by Richard Cheney in consultation with his junior associate, George W. Bush, to invade and occupy Iraq, a country which had been decimated by an economic embargo and whose army had been cut by two-thirds since 1991. Once the predatory decision had been made, it was necessary to fabricate a plausible justification for it, to “fix the intelligence around the policy”, to use the British phraseology. This required months of a carefully calibrated propaganda campaign to misinform the American public and pressure the U.S. Congress and Senate for the authorization to attack. At the UN in the Security Council, a similar mendacious strategy was underway. At the same time, the White House was suggesting that it did not actually need authorization from the Congress or the UN to initiate hostilities. Why not? Because G.W. Bush is POTUS 43, the commander-in-chief, and as such he can do as he pleases when it comes to national security affairs. The same argument will be made if and when the U.S. attacks Iran.

Let’s be clear. Oil-rich Iraq had nothing to do with the national security of the United States. From the very start, going back to Saddam’s attempted annexation of Kuwait in 1990, Iraq was and remains a political football. What has been done to Iraq by successive Administrations in the name of the American people--beginning with H.W. Bush and “Operation Desert Storm” in 1991 and continuing with Bill Clinton and Madeleine Albright and the murderous economic sanctions on Iraq throughout the 1990’s, and highlighted by the bizarre 1998 “Iraq Liberation Act” of Congress, which passed 360-38 in the House of Representatives and by unanimous consent in the Senate, and finally in 2003, the invasion of Iraq itself, endorsed by the Democratic leadership on Capital Hill--all of this was based upon American domestic politics and constant pressure from the U.S. Israel Lobby, and not on the legitimate national security concerns of the the United States. What is happening now in 2007 is more of the same, to wit, more politics: the Democrats, many of whom were cheerleaders for the war when it began, are trying to make whatever political mileage they can from the obvious disaster this war has become. There are some intellectually honest individuals, like Congressman John Murtha and Senator Chuck Hagel, but they are the exceptions.

Meanwhile, Dick Cheney and what is left of his dwindling gang of “neocons” want to attack Iran, in a last gasp of recklessness and myopia. Bush Jr. is on board, as before, for reasons which remain unclear and unimportant. But the scenario employed to take out Iraq will not work. Why not? Because Cheney and Bush have been exposed as duplicitous. They have hardly an ounce of credibility left. “Operation Iraqi Freedom” has degenerated into a nightmare and many of the “neocon” operatives who carried it out from the Pentagon and from the White House have wisely fled the scene of the crime. One of them, I. “Scooter” Libby, Cheney’s chief of staff as well as a counselor to the President, has been convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice in connection with covering up the White House disinformation campaign. In short, the same dog won’t hunt.

Still, attacking Iran is on Tel Aviv’s wish list, as clearly evidenced by AIPAC’s “Policy Conferences” in Washington from the last 3 or 4 years, so something has to be worked out before Cheney and Bush leave office. Actually, the situation is not looking all that bad on Capital Hill for reinstating “the clash of civilizations”, despite the Iraq fiasco. The me-too Democrats, in particular those running for President in 2008, and especially the Republicans running for President, are on record that “all options are on the table” when it comes to Iran. To translate, under the right circumstances, Democratic leaders, and all Presidential contenders, will go along with a U.S. attack on Iran. It just requires the right setup. The White House has only to prepare the bogus circumstances, like it did prior to “Operation Iraqi Freedom”. Fine and dandy. Once again, the Democrats are enabling Cheney and Bush to launch another unprovoked war. It was your country.

But there may be an unforeseen problem for the war party. Two months ago, on April 25th, the London Sunday Times reported (”US generals ‘will quit’ if Bush orders Iran attack” by Michael Smith & Sarah Baxter) that a handful of generals and admirals would not obey White House orders to attack Iran, but would resign in the face of such an order. This is astonishing and unprecedented, if true. It appears that a significant number of U.S. military officers have concluded that the two gentlemen in charge at the White House are not playing with a full deck. What does it mean for the warmongers? How will the White House, in cooperation with their “neocon” brain trust, railroad America into another unnecessary war? The largely overlooked and unheralded article in the London Sunday Times provides a good clue. “A second US navy aircraft carrier strike group led by the USS John C Stennis arrived in the Gulf last week, doubling the US presence there. Vice Admiral Patrick Walsh, the commander of the US Fifth Fleet, warned: ‘The US will take military action if ships are attacked or if countries in the region are targeted or US troops come under direct attack.’” Read that again. The scenario is in place.

Taking the vice admiral’s statement at face value, this indicates that the White House has ordered the U.S. fleet to attack Iran in the event Iran takes action against any country in the region. An instant war trigger. No need for Congress to act. The me-too Democrats and the brain dead Republicans can relax, sit back and enjoy it. There is no alliance, formal or informal, and no treaty which would require the U.S. to attack Iran in the event Iran “targets” other countries in the region. The only reason Iran would target anybody would be in the event Iran had been targeted first, and Iran was attempting to launch a counter-attack, in other words, defending itself. Get the drift? It is entirely possible that a nuclear-armed Tel Aviv, acting “on its own” but in coordination with Dick Cheney, Elliot Abrams, David Wurmser and maybe even with George W. Bush, will initiate hostilities with a bombing run and/or cruise missile attack on Iran. Then, as soon as Iran attempts to react, Iran will get clobbered with a massive “shock and awe” blitzkrieg carried out by the U.S. air force and navy, which attack will virtually destroy the Iranian military and the Iranian nuclear energy program as well. The final mission accomplished. Cheney and Bush will be back on top in Washington. The shameful and shameless me-too Democrats will be out maneuvered yet again. Life is beautiful. The revenge of the neocons will be complete.

Patrick Foy is author of The Unauthorized World Situation Report.

Comments

This senario sounds all too true.The democrats are owned totally by the Israeli lobby, dispite their grassroots being against it.Our only hope is if the military rebells with mass resignations.

Posted by Jack on Apr 25, 2007.
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Russia and China do business with Iran. If Iran is attacked by our government will they sit on their hands?  I’m thinking of dumping dollar assets.  How about biological weapons put amongst us by non-identifiable agents?  What are any of our leaders thinking about?  China has been working on six or seven varieties of nano weapons since 1987.  Do our naval people know what the Sizzler is - it’s an 1800 mph torpedo against which we have no defense.

It’s plausible. The Democrats have already caved to AIPAC, not allowing any Congressional resolution prohibiting Bush from attacking Iran to reach the floor for a vote.  Ironically, the only real obstacle to an American attack on Iran is the Pentagon.  Gates, Pace, and the other generals who just might have the balls to say, “NO!” We will know this is true if the WEEKLY STANDARD begins calling for the heads of these gentlemen.

In the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson wrote:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

Jack, “The democrats are owned totally by the Israeli lobby”

I don’t think it’s accurate to say “owned”. It’s more a case of “intimidated”:

“I can tell you from personal experience that, at least in the Congress, the support Israel has in that body is based completely on political fear--fear of defeat by anyone who does not do what Israel wants done. I can also tell you that very few members of Congress--at least when I served there--have any affection for Israel or for its Lobby. What they have is contempt, but it is silenced by fear of being found out exactly how they feel. I’ve heard too many cloakroom conversations in which members of the Senate will voice their bitter feelings about how they’re pushed around by the Lobby to think otherwise. In private one hears the dislike of Israel and the tactics of the Lobby, but not one of them is willing to risk the Lobby’s animosity by making their feelings public.”
("Former Senator James Abourezk on Chomsky and the Israel Lobby in the US”, Al-Jazeerah, December 5, 2006.)

Lee, “Russia and China do business with Iran. If Iran is attacked by our government will they sit on their hands?”

I believe both states are following Napoleon’s maxim:

“Never interrupt an enemy that is in the process of making a mistake.”

-----

Bob’s Riddle

All anti-white racists agree that it’s ok for whites to become minorities in their own countries. All anti-white racists also agree that a Japanese person who wants to become a minority in his own country is either a traitor or clinically insane. Therefore, what is an anti-white racist? Answer

Mr. Foy,
Thanks for the heads-up.
I doubt that news would appear
on my nightly news channel.

Starting about five minutes after 9/11, Cheney and co. had
a war in search of a rationale and started slinging it
at the wall.  They had to proceed, however, through ties to Bin
Laden, still threat to region/oil supply, Iraqis want us
to invade, democracies are peaceful etc. before they
finally hit on the winner: WMD/mushroom cloud over
Chicago.  This time they can skip the preliminaries.
Are we as a nation really complacent enough to let them
get away with it again, though?

If William Lind’s scenario is correct about us losing our army if we attack Iran (with the Shiites in southern Iraq cutting our supply lines, hence no fuel for our humvees, and the rest, and Turkey is a long way to walk), then the only good thing that will come out of such an attack is our complete and utter inability to repeat the mistake.  Losing an army and an aircraft carrier or two would both limit our ability and desire to repeat neocon experiments.

Posted by tz on Apr 26, 2007.
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THE TRUE OFFENDERS ARE THE EGO-MANIACS OF EUROPE AND
AMERICA. YOU!

I think owned is the right word. I have read that 60% of the Democrats funding comes from people who supporters of Israel.However by polling 76% of the American Jewish populations are against the Iraq war.A lot of the wealthy elite does seem to be very warlike with American blood and money.Cheney should be blamed for putting this coalition of oil and Israel together. It has been a disaster.

Posted by Jack on Apr 27, 2007.
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I don’t think “owned” and “intimdated” are mutually exclusive.  Think of slaves.

While this is the scenario that Bush and Cheney would like - especially that last part about their revenge being complete - the reality is that Iran will counterattack in Iraq along with their Shia allies, as well as probably activating Hizballah and other groups against Israel. The US will lose its entire army in Iraq as the Shia militias and the Iranian Revolutionary Guards cut the US supply lines. Thirty days later, the US forces, out of food, water, ammo and fuel, will be forced to evacuate Iraq under fire. The price of oil will jump to at least $150 per barrel as the Iranans cut the Straits of Hormuz off from oil shipping and bombard the oil depots and shipping points of those Gulf States who allow the US to operate from their territory. The US economy will evaporate as China, irritated at losing Iranian energy sources, dumps the US dollar. Terrorist groups will start blowing themselves and car bombs up in New York Times Square at rush hour (the US is MADE for car bombings!) The US will attempt a land invasion of Iran in order to seize the Khuzestan oil province (the real target of all this), and the Iranians will employ the “Vietnam strategy” - as updated by Hizballah last summer - and bleed the US to death militarily, economically and geopolitically for the next ten years. Ten years from now Bush and Cheney will be tried by the international courts for war crimes and imprisoned for the rest of their natural lives. Unfortunately that won’t do the rest of you any good since the damage will have been done.

I wouldn’t put the Iranians out of the picture just because the US decided to blow its wad with aircraft and missles.  Since they’ve acquired Russian supersonic Sunburn missles (somewhere around Mach 2.2 or 2.5) in quantity, something that navy dreamers have never dealt with in the “real world”, and since the US Navy has only three seconds at most to acquire and possibly destroy these multi-ton speed demons, it would be a bitter tonic indeed to see multiple cruisers and an aircraft carrier go down to Davy Jones locker.  Now that would be shock and awe… and well deserved. 

Would that bring about the even greater evil of launching tactical nukes because the Americans were getting a royal reaming of their own creation?  And no insurance company or tanker skipper would be insane enough to navigate the Straits of Hormuz for fear of being blown out of the water.  And the Russians and Chinese, not to mention Japan etc., are not going to let the US bring them all down the drain just so some lunatic in the “Madrass of Madness” aka 1600 Pennsylvania can primp and stutter about the GWOT.  When people are starving and paying six bucks a gallon they’ll be pissed and all the folderol vomiting forth from politicians pie holes won’t mean a damn thing.

Posted by DrFix on Apr 28, 2007.
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“A second US navy aircraft carrier strike group led by the USS John C Stennis arrived in the Gulf last week, doubling the US presence there.”

The American press never really tells the whole story do they?  I have corrected this observation at least 20 times in the last two months.  You are underreporting the number of US aircraft carrier groups in the Gulf region by at least 100%.  There are actually four carrier groups in the region at all times now.  There are two, and today possibly three Marine Expeditionary Units (MEU) in the Gulf.  An MEU is based around an aircraft carrier.  Granted these are not nuclear carriers but they are huge.  They are more than 800 ft. long, almost as long as the nuclear carriers, but conventionally powered, plus their screening task forces of ships.  According to http://www.ne.jp/asahi/gonavy/atsugi/meu00.html the LHD-4 Boxer, LHD-5 Bataan and LHD-6 Bon Homme Richard are in the Centcom AOR.

Here is an interesting article about operations of the LHD-5 while in the Arabian Gulf:  http://www.bataan.navy.mil/news/news73.htm

Here is essentially the same story but it says LHD-5 and its screen is in the Persian Gulf, which is a huge difference, especially in how Iran views it.  And here is how Iran views it:  http://www.defense-update.com/newscast/0407/analysis/analysis-120407.htm And the Nimitz is on the way, ostensibly to relieve the Eisenhower, but for awhile there will probably be three nuclear carriers in the region.

I’ll let you draw your own conclusion what all this force is about.

Regards—Dean Billin

The pending attack on Iranian Nuclear facilities by joint US-Israeli contrivance has been an eventuality since Bush was thrust into power in 2000 through an electoral coup orchestrated by neoConservatives. Make no mistake about it. The only question that remains Gentlemen, is when such an attack is to occur.

I feel for those parents who have lost a son fighting in Iraq. When they read articles like this they must know that their beloved child did not die for this country, they died as a result of a scam devised by radical and bllodthirsty Zionist.

General David Petraeus Said,
The top U.S. commander in Iraq, depicted the situation there as “exceedingly complex and very tough” Thursday and said the U.S. effort might become more difficult before it gets easier”.
To General David Petraeus & Congress:
It’s Not Complex!
It’s Very, Very Simple!
(Simple Fact #1 )

The Bush/Cheney Administration Invades Iraq Based On Lies and Profit, Installs a Democracy With Bullets & Bombs, Creates an (Oil Rich) Shia Controlled Iraqi Government, Which Will Force 6 Million (Oil Empty) Sunnis To Choose Between Eating Sand or Setting Bombs!
(Simple Fact #2 )
Al-Qaeda and The People in the Middle East Do Not Hate Americans; Do Not Hate Our Freedoms, But They Do Hate, Very Much, Unfair U.S. Government Policies, Including Having Our Troops Marching On Their Sacred Land – Be It U.S. Troops or Soviet Troops!

To: General David Petraeus & Congress:
It’s Not Tough!
It’s Mission Impossible!
(Simple Fact #3 )
There Can Be and Will Be No End To The Civil War(s) in Iraq Until All U.S. Troops Are Removed From Iraq Because the U.S. Military Presence Delegitimizes Any Outcome! To Come To an Understanding of How Wealth and Power in Iraq Will be Shared, The Political Forces There Must Measure Their Relative Capacity and Will!
U.S. Diplomacy YES !  U.S. Military Intervention NO !

Support Senate Resolution S 759 IS Senator James Webb
PROHIBITS THE USE OF FUNDS FOR MILITARY OPERATIONS IN IRAN WITHOUT EXPRESS CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL
Support House Joint Resolution 14 Congressman Walter Jones
REQUIRING CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL PRIOR TO USE OF MILITARY FORCE AGAINST IRAN
Support H.R. 413 Congressman Sam Farr
LEGISLATION WHICH REPEALS THE IRAQ WAR RESOLUTION OF (2002) AND REQUIRES THE PRESIDENT TO START W

I don’t think Paul (R) or Gravel (D) have put “all options on the table” regarding Iran. Of course, that’s why the media doesn’t treat them as serious candidates.

Quoted from above, “The me-too Democrats, in particular those running for President in 2008, and especially the Republicans running for President, are on record that “all options are on the table” when it comes to Iran. To translate, under the right circumstances, Democratic leaders, and all Presidential contenders, will go along with a U.S. attack on Iran.”, is not true.  Rep Ron Paul is running for president in 08 and he is against war with Iran and against this current war.  If you know nothing about him, view his constitutionally perfect record from all his years in the House.  If you are against interventionism by government you should be for Ron Paul for President, 2008.

Posted by Tedez on Apr 28, 2007.
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Well said, Mr. Tedez.  Ron Paul for President, 2008.

Here follows a short prediction regarding the pending massive joint air assault on Iran. The military objectives in an attack on Iran likely have little to do with any nuclear programs but rather are aimed at destroying military capacity in the short run and economic activity in the longer run. The ultimate objective is the destruction of the Iranian economy as a means by which to depopulate Iran sufficiently, as is presently underway with Iraq, to allow the Transnational Petro Kleptocracy the ability reap the profits from the last of the Iranian petroleum reserves. Therefore, the most likely target, other than the Iranian military’s command and control systems, shall be its nine petroleum refining facilities. The largest, the 450,000 bpd facility in Abadan, is presently off-line for maintenance and may simply be commandeered by a small expeditionary force. Without refining capacity, for all practical purposes, all Iranian economic activity will cease and the nation will, like Iraq, be condemned to a ceaseless bloody chaos. It’s hard to fathom the Mafia like thinking that eagerly sacrifices whole nations, with thousands of years of history, simply to profit from the last of the world’s conventional petroleum reserves.

Don’t hesitate, investigate~! ................................................................................... Its really worse than watergate.  On a brighter note, the shambles of the bush presidentcy will have more than a little trouble with the sky if falling fable which they used before.  Taki wont let me discuss 911 so I’ll leave you here.

I can’t recall the otherwise reluctant neoCon; and denunciator of Dr. Mearsheimer as an “anti-Semite,” David Gergen behaving in more direct and forthcoming manner than when he commented on the Iraqi debacle during an ABC round table discussion some months back. He ended the dialogue by stating that “Well, one thing is certain. The hour of decision is approaching.” ...And it is.

It is very sad to see the greatest democracy in the world be put in chains by a bunch of Israeli thugs (AIPAC).  It is depressing to see the cowardice and lack of dignity of many members of US Congress that exchange for contributions their loyalty and service to the Constitution and the people of the United States. I hope it will be the US top brass that will finally stand up and put an end to this warmongering senselessness.

“THE TRUE OFFENDERS ARE THE EGO-MANIACS OF EUROPE AND
AMERICA. YOU!”
Temper, temper! :)

Posted by Ryan on Apr 28, 2007.
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Well worth reading if only for some of the comments at the end. Luke

Posted by Terry on Apr 28, 2007.
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I would prefer to see those unnamed admirals and
generals publically refuse to obey illegal orders
by the President. This act would wake up the
American people to the true nature of the predatory
elite which has taken over the foreign policy
function of the US government. LT. Erin Watada did
just this and his trial was declared a mistrial by the
alert judge who realized that Watada’s principled
and public heroism is what we need to stop that
psychopaths in the GWB regime. AIPAC is a criminal
organization that has subverted the political process
for the benefit of the Zionist project of world
domination. Check out the up coming trial of two
AIPAC officials for espionage. The Zionist owned
media has kept this crime off the news. Adios

Posted by bob k on Apr 28, 2007.
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you all can sit and run all kind of propaganda in all forms.
look and listen carefully,very carefully..no one and there will be no one to attack Iranians.
you can count on your almighty superior power all you want,at the end ,only the will to fight wins all the battles.
Iranians are serious people,we don’t count on weapons,we count on the will to fight.
is it hard for you elits to see through Vietnam and Iraq?,it shouldn’t be unless you are drunk.

Thank you for this great article.  I believe that US will attack Iran even if all US Generals resigned.  If there is no General willing to attack Iran, Cheney and Bush will use Israeli Generals!!!  Our only hope is that American people realize that our country is totally controlled by Israel.

Pre-emptive War is morally wrong no matter how you spin it. To make an analogy at a personal level, imagine this scenario: A murderer gets out of prison and moves in next door to you. He has murdered before, so he is a threat, right? Therefore, you should go right over there right now and shoot him before he murders you, correct? How can a so-called Christian nation support Pre-emptive War? How would we in the U.S. view a world where all of the countries acted like we do? And we think they hate us because of our freedom? That can’t be true either… not since most of the Bill of Rights just got trashed by the Military Commissions Act! I won’t vote for ANYONE who leaves all options on the table.

Posted by Steve on Apr 28, 2007.
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Amen Paul or Hagel

Posted by jack on Apr 29, 2007.
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In February 1947, George Frost Kennan issued a policy planning study which has been a seminal US policy guide ever since.  That study stated the US need to control vital,natural,global resources
for its own interests and also said that spreading democracy and raising living standards was a sentimental day dream best diapensed with. The studyconcluded that, in future, the US would have to deal in “straight power concepts” to secure control over its needed resources. The Kennan study is as clear a statement of the crocodile’s game as has ever been made. The crocodile’s game is simple: satisfy all appetites by whatever means and at whatever cost necessary. We have seen the game played well in the Middle East for decades, first by the British and French and then the Americans.  Now that peak oil and decline has been understood by the elite sectors of the US, the game has gotten more extreme amd more desparate.  No politician with serious presidential ambition will abandon the game; only the tactics will change. That is the sad but total reality.

I am wondering if politicians have acted legally under the constitution regarding the above?
If they have not acted constitutionally why don’t groups of people call for enquiries and/or take legal actions?
It seems the Govt. give Israel more than the money they need to buy up our policians? ........I can imagine much laughter.....

Also, I wonder what nation would use Nukes etc if they knew the price they would pay would be total destruction?
Also, I wonder if the terrorisim our Govts proport to be protecting us from isn’t simply caused by their own actions & policys & foreign meddling?
Lastly, can the media be financially responsible if it’s delibeately fraudulent reporting has caused huge damage.
BF

AIPAC and zionists have controlled their ‘Chosen’ process to install US politicians and those Puppets residing in the White House. The monetary issue involved, regarded to AIPAC’s donation, is IRRELEVANT. It’s the AIPAC and their zionist-controlled media who are running their shows (and their ‘Selection’) that force US politicians playing “Kissing Ass” to jews and Israel, and ignore Americans’ wills.

As long as they (AIPAC, hence zionists) maintain their control over the US sElection charade, US politicians have to play and “Karaoke” to their tunes and their policies. American, indeed, as put repeatly by Japanese PMs, “… is a STUPID People...” who willingly play ignorant and let zionsts to take control over their government and to let them use America as a proxy to empower and enrich Israel.

The American, nowadays, not only is stupid but also is a Fukking Coward people.

A shameful American

“An unconfirmed report quoting unidentified Pentagon sources has recently revealed a top secret Iranian contingency plan, allegedly leaked by a former Iranian intelligence defector. “

Dean Billings,
The defense-update story is interesting but obviously not to be taken seriously.

Posted by atheo on Apr 29, 2007.
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Ron Paul or Hagel for president, either as Republicans or as independents.I would like to vote for someone.

Posted by Jack on Apr 29, 2007.
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I think if we attack Iran it will be the end of a disastrous foreign policy controlled by elites who’s loyalty is with Israel. It can be viewed as some good in what will be a very bad situation. Israel’s situation in the middle east will be even worse. The populations of Egypt and Jordon will overthrow their governments and replace them with defiant combative ones.

Dean,

A MEU is NOT based around an aircraft carrier, it is built around LHAs.  An aircraft carrier is a specific type of ship, and has CV or CVN in its designation. 

One reason that there is so much “fuzzy thinking” on
these topics is that civilians such as yourself
do not know what they are talking about.  I’m sure
your intentions are good, but you are spreading
disinformation if you don’t know even the basic
types and designations of Navy ships.

Americans are too apathetic to regain control of their nation - the rigged political system installed by the so called “Founding Fathers”, none of whom, other than Washington, risked thier aristocratic butts in the “Revolutionary” war, would require massive participation to overcome - isnt’ going to happen unless the people are subjected to a financial bust of 30’s porportions.

I don’t believe the “provocation” will be this overt. If it happens, it will be very covert. Something will be done that the world won’t hear about, but which will cause the Iranians to become furiously mad and launch a revenge attack. Or maybe the Iranians will be covertly convinced that we are about the nuke then, so that they strike first. It will be something sneaky and it will look like Iran preemptively attacked Israel without cause.

Patrick (Foy)

Didn’t you mean ‘soul’ dead as in Spiritually dead!

...................aikiv

Patrick (Foy) Didn’t you mean ‘Soul’ dead?  as in Spiritually dead. .........  A KNESAL

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