The “Good War” is more a civic religion than a historical event but the cognitive dissonance that these works provoke will have a salutary effect at least among the small minority interested in the truth.  The feeble-minded, sentimental, cynical will still prostrate them selves before the idols and the priests will remain in their sinecures.

A. J. P. Taylor’s The Origins of the Second World War (1961) was the first academic diplomatic historical revision of the war myth.  Taylor’s study is the more compelling for his ardent pro-Churchill interventionism at the outbreak of the war.  He considers the war a mistake and exonerates Hitler of the charge that he planned aggressive war.

I look forward to reading all of these books. I assume that Buchanan’s book will address well-known objections to his position.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/1999-10/19/057r-101999-idx.html

Taki,
Stick to history you know.

Jews were not universally expelled in 135 CE. Jews and Samaritans combined were a majority until the final Byzantine-PErsian war in 617, when Jews retook the land for 2 years.

Despite the colonization, attempted cultural genocide, and esnlavement and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Jews, Jews were a plurality until the end of Byzantine occupation. It was only the Muslim Arab invasion that changed things.

And most “Palestinians” are not even decended from the Muslim occupation before the 19th century. Between 1880 and 1945, more Arabs than Jews came to the land. And this does not even include the Bosnian Muslims and Albanians and Circassians who were resettled by the retreating Ottoman Caliphate.
And Deir Yassin was a bloodbath because the Arab army decided to attack in the midst of civilians.
The left in Israel and Arabs then manufactured the lie of the massacre to discredit the right.
Good to see Taki buying Communist Agitprop.

And Taki’s Nazi revisionism of blaming the Allies for Nazi mistreatment of Jews is dispicable. Among others, he is pissing on those Greeks who fought the Nazi occupation.
He is no American or Greek Patriot.
I ask again, how much is he dependent on Arab oil?

WWII wasn’t such a good war, but it was alas inevitable.  The Treaty of Versailles pretty much saw to that.  Actually WWII was two wars: the Hitler War, which became official in September, 1939, and the Pacific War, which started in December, 1941.  A superb book on how the Pacific War got started is John Costello’s “Days if Infamy.” It wasn’t started by conspiracy.  Hubris and myopia forced Japan into it, not evil intent..  As for putting down Hitler, well, sooner or later someone had to do it.

There is no excuse for Wilson getting the US into WWI and then letting Clemenceau snooker him into supporting the Treaty of Versailles in exchange for French support for the League of Nations.  WWII was the second act of WWI

Taki you have convinced me. The US should not have gone
to war. Greece would have done just fine under Hitler.

I will have to leave this site, though. I can take only so much Nazi apologetics. Specially
the shameful kind that does not have the guts to get up and say that they wish that
Hitler had won the war.

If it is now “neoconservative” to oppose WW One but support WW 2, then I guess that I am a neoconservative after all.  By the way, paleos who compare the Iraq War to WW 2 (and oppose both for the same reasons) are just as wrong-headed as neocons who support both wars for the same reasons.

I will have to leave this site, though. I can take only so much Nazi apologetics. Specially
the shameful kind that does not have the guts to get up and say that they wish that
Hitler had won the war.

Someone is overreaching, as usual.

The Allies did many harsh, cruel, and sometimes dishonorable things in WWII.  But there is a world of difference between instrumental violence designed to win wars and violence and mass murder as an end in itself.  The Nazis diverted war materiel to mass murder Jews; they killed Ukranians en masse, even though they were initially greeted as liberators by this unfortunate people who were kept under Stalin’s thumb during the 1930s.  Jews were expelled from Germany and murdered (as well as being murdered even on the eve of the end of the war in Hungary just for the hell of it) before, during, after, close to, and far away from allied bombing.

I don’t believe in carpet bombing civilians, but the idea that errant bombs, even lots of them, lost in the bombing of military armament factories is even in the same league as Auschwitz and the mass murder of civilians in the East is a false equivalence. The Dresden bombing was a unique change in strategy and an unfortunate and unnecessary one.

We should look at and consider our failings as a people, but let’s not forget we were bombed at Pearl Harbor and Germany declared war against us one week later.  These bastard extremists started the wheel in motion, not America, which was still sensibly in check by the intelligent sentiments of the America First movement until Dec. 7 1941.

Considering the exhaustion by both sides by 1917, America’s late entrance into WWI, which many historians now concede probably prevented an Allied Powers acquiescence to the reality of the still intact superior Central Powers military capability, created the pre-conditions for WWII. Absent that American decisive intervention, it seems probable that the warring parties would have been forced to arrive at a mutual accommodation. If The Great War had been settled intra-Europe with post war geopolitical conditions more or less resembling the pre-war correlation of forces, we would probably not know today the names of Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mao Tse Tung, Ho Chi Minh and Pol Pot. Our entry into WWI at the behest of the British was the spawning Grand Strategic event of the 20th century. And that century later unfolded as the bloodiest experienced by man on this planet. That century also saw America become an Imperial power leaving her republican roots in the sentimental past. Wars have consequences both seen and unforeseen.

In World War II, despite the best armies and military leaders, superior war-fighting doctrine, internal lines of communication, efficient logistical management and a natural patriotism which married a sense of moral rightness from being “stabbed in the back” at the post World War I peace treaty at Versailles, Germany lost the war. However, the German war-fighting in World War II and Germany’s ultimate loss becomes explicable when viewed through a prism of three war types, Wars of Dominance, Wars of Displacement and Wars of Destruction. The reason was that when you mix colors you get a mishmash. Germany fought all three types of war near concurrently, and had strategic decisions based on one war type imposed on the others.

In the West, Germany fought a War of Dominance over her traditional rivals, the French, British and their lessor allies. In the East, pursuant to the perceived necessity of “lebensraum,” she fought a War of Displacement. At first the Ukrainians, Belorussians and other Slavs welcomed them as liberators and were prepared to willingly subordinate themselves to new German masters in order to remove the hated yoke of Russia and Communism. When they realized that it was a War of Displacement of THEM, they resisted with efforts which slowly bled the German Armies dry, and which were significant contributions to the anti-German war efforts . And always and everywhere, because of an imposed overruling Nazi ideology ,Germany also fought a War of Destruction attempting to primarily exterminate all remnants of Jewry, but also gypsies, some Slavs and other “unter menchen.” Scarce resources and military deployments were constantly diverted in furtherance of that goal despite critical military situations in accordance with the needs of the other war types. The German military had three different war goals imposed by the regime which were frequently at cross purposes with each other. Germany was never therefore able to develop and execute a consistent and coherent Grand Strategy to fight and win the war.

If Germany had committed serious resources to the Naval effort and hadn’t lost the Battle of the North Atlantic by 1943, no invasion of France in 1944 and a Western Front against her would have been possible, and logistical support to Russia would have been drastically reduced. That would have probably led to stalemate in the East, and given her a chance of negotiating a peace with considerable eastern assets in tow. However, the cardinal interest was never really about Germany, but always Hitler’s ideological concerns. In a rare exception to historical experience, state interests were trumped by ideology, and whenever ideology prevails, true national interests will suffer. That is why Germany lost World War II.

Chris,

I agree with your sentiments, but unfortunately there is a world of difference between what we did over Europe--flying by day and trying to hit military targets--and what we did over Japan--flying by night and dropping incendiaries over cities filled with wooden structures. 

In his book, Buchanan offers this quote from Curtis LeMay on the fire bombing of Tokyo:  “We scorched and boiled and baked to death more people in Tokyo that night of March 9-10 than went up in vapor in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.” Similar tactics were employed by Bomber Command over Germany.

The Christian just war tradition says that not only must the war be just, but so must be the means employed.  The Allies in World War II met the first test; unfortunately, we did not always meet the second.

As usual Taki nails it. Churchill had many virtues. But he was a warmonger and a German hater who reveled in blood and destruction.

I can’t wait to read Buchanan’s book.

It might be a good idea to read the books before flying off into VFW rants and high dudgeon.  After reading Human Smoke one might be less inclined to talk of “errant bombs” and the exceptional case of Dresden.  In Baker’s elliptical concatenating narrative, horror follows horror in an implied series of cause and effect relationships.  Most people are shocked to hear that the allies first targeted civilians.  The Germans were pretty shocked at the time also.
Since WWII targeting civilians is an essential part of modern warfare. Does anyone remember Daniel Goldhagan’s Times article calling for carpet-bombing Serbia?  The title, yes, you guessed right: “Milosovic’s Willing Executioners.”
Scott Ritter said he knew the invasion of Iraq was on as soon as Bush called Saddam Hussein “Hitler.” 1,200,000 Iraqi dead later, there is another Hitler to be slain.  The World War (1914-1945) continues as an insatiable self-righteous Moloch. It is idolatry to worship it.
There is no moral justification for the killing of civilians in war, ever and there is very dubious justification for the killing of soldiers in war.

Brilliant essay Taki, some people just don’t like the truth. Pat Buchanan will be roasted, but I can hardly wait for the book. I wish he would run one last time.

The commentator that noted that World War Two is no longer so much a historical event as a civic religion made a fine point.

Paleos don’t need to refight World War Two. What’s done is done. All told Hitler’s defeat, like that of the USSR, was all told probably “worth it”, but we should not forget the price.

Post-war triumphalism, ...and it’s not just, or even mainly neocons, who have become addicted to that hooch, ...has encouraged us, indeed misled us, into downplaying the cost ...and disparaging or burying those historical figures who warned of the cost. The cost was not just in terms of tangible lives and dollars, but also in terms of civilisation, morality, the Republic and hard won constitutional liberties too.

Recovering from those losses is now an urgent priority, indeed if the WW2 and Cold War victories are to have any long term value, what the war cost must now be regained. If they aren’t the Nazis and Communists will have had the last laugh.

The triumphalists are the real revisionists, Orwell style editors of history who have redacted from memory what Baker and Buchanan have disinterred.

“Paleos don’t need to refight World War Two.”

You’re right about that and paleos shouldn’t allow the neocons to pick the field of battle to fight upon. Pat’s correct to take this back to the beginning, WW I, where this mess got started and not fall into the trap of allowing the neocons to start in the middle by hollering about Hitler and Germany. I note as well that if they mention the Japanese at all it is usually as an afterthought, whichs really is revealing as to their priorities.

Morris states his facts coldly and to hell with the consequences.

And so shall I.  Adriana beat me to it.  Talk about a Straussian Hidden Teaching!  Ol’ Leo’s was pretty transparent: that Christianity be a bad religion and democracy a bad Staatsform.  Taki’s now presents his Hidden Teaching: “How sad that Benito and his understudy lost!”.  Mind you, I’m not saying that Taki now has a Brown or Black Shirt and a NSDAP card.  It’s just that, awash in salivating hate for Neocons and Cultural Marxists, he’s become the “Far Right’s” useful idiot, as did many conservatives and Catholics in the 20s and 30s. Paul Gottfried needs to ask himself if he’s become the same.  Such Faustian bargains ought be avoided.

Taki makes no effort to present the story of Herzl, and his run-in with Georg Schönerer, and what prompted Herzl’s founding of Zionism. (See John Lukacs on this). What Herzl saw on a small scale, the 30s and 40s saw on a large one: the genocide attempted on the Jews.  So Jews, with some good reason, felt the need to have a piece of the earth they could call their own – or be wiped out.

Churchill’s errors have been known for decades.  Taki misses one of them: his “weak underbelly” strategy.  The unconditional surrender demand and the refusal to work with the July 20th group were equally serious mistakes.  That doesn’t change the correctness of the war against the Axis, or the honor of the man who led it. 

So now this website has crossed the Brown Rubicon. The expulsion of the more blatant antisemites now appears only to be a fig leaf.  No wonder Taki 2.0 has fallen silent; it’s filthy author has won. I’m glad that two of my usual opponents now have distanced themselves, rightly, from Taki’s thesis, Mr. Roach and (I think) Mr Havers.  I thank them. Now that the Brown Rubicon indeed has been crossed, they need to join Adriana and all the rest of the honorable and get the hell out of here.  Paul Gottfried, Mr. Epstein, and Mr. Hadar should do the same or resign themselves to spitting on the graves at Auschwitz of his tribesmen.  And the best writer here and an honorable man, Dr. Zmirak, I pray now has discovered suddenly that he’s playing court jester in Obersalzburg and the Villa Torlonia and draw the consequences.

Ditto Mr. Piatak, who needs to get out of here for a different reason. unfortunately there is a world of difference between what we did over Europe--flying by day and trying to hit military targets [sic]--and what we did over Japan--flying by night and dropping incendiaries over cities filled with wooden structures. Mr. Piatak is ignorant of the Hamburg and Dresden firestorms, is ignorant of what 4000 degrees will do to brick, and thus ignorant of historical and chemical facts.  But in his theological principles – that not only must the war be just, but so must be the means employed – he is quite learned and correct.  This ain’t a Catholic-friendly website anymore, Mr. P!

There is no moral justification for the killing of civilians in war And that includes, Dan, civilians in the Balkans, many of whom were Croats and Bosniaks. Again, the moral principle is correct; Dan’s application is selective.  Alas, 3rd and 4th Generation War and the War for Existence as a People destroys the tripart separation of civilian-state-army and thus are wars particularly bloody.  See van Creveld on this.

I welcome Ron L. and I’ve learned something from Mr. Johnson. “tim” is making sense also, or at least some sense. 

Speaking of sense, readers would do well to compare and contrast the discussion of Human Smoke at LewRockwell.com.  That discussion has its problems as well, but no insinuation that Fascism and fascism are really swell, groovy, and cool.

An afterthought.  The other honorable man who led the fight against the Axis was De Gaulle.  May is the 50 anniversary of his other great achievement.  And 08 is the 40th of the revolution that causes most of what we’re suffering form.  Expect no good analysis of either at Takimag. 

And I’m still waiting for a good analysis of Gianfranco Fini and his party.  Has he paved a way for Paleo’s to go?  Now I suppose the view of him on Takimag will be the same as Alessandra Mussolini’s (who looked better when we saw more of her—if you get my drift).

Mr. Cundiff needs to learn how to read.  When I wrote that there was a world of difference between what “we” did in Euorpe and in the Pacific, I meant there was a world of difference in what we Americans did.  (I realize Mr. Cundiff thinks there is no such thing as an “American,” so perhaps this is the source of his confusion.)

By and large, US bombers in Europe flew during the day and targeted military targets, such as the famous raids on the ball bearing plants in Schweinfurt.  We took heavy casualties flying by day and were actually targeting items of military significance, not civilians. 

Unfortunately, too often in the Pacific we emulated what the British had done in Europe, flying at night and dropping incendiaries over population centers not caring who we killed.  The former type of strategic bombing is morally justified, the latter is not.

Contra Adriana’s and Sid’s melodramatic (and predictable) pronouncements, what Taki wrote hardly amounts to a defense of Hitler.  Setting aside the issue of Israel’s establishment (since Hitler obviously was not around for that), he merely points out that the traditional claim that Hitler foisted a war for world supremacy upon an unwilling Britain is at least highly problematic.  And German records and post-war statements by German officials make clear that the Allied bombing did in fact contribute significantly to the horrible conditions in German wartime camps.  One does not need to argue that the Allies should never have fought the war at all to accept this fact, and it is simply disingenuous to deny it.

Thank you for this piece, Taki, and I urge the other writers on this site to disregard Sid’s effort to pain all of Takimag with the brush of Hiterlism.  I’m not suggesting that they agree (or ought to) with Taki’s thesis, and I expect to read challenges to it from some of them.  It’s precisely that sort of robust controversy that makes this site such a compelling read.

Sid and Adriana are prone to the vapors.  Unlike them, I actually have a copy of Buchanan’s book, and there is nothing in there saying that was “swell, groovy, and cool.” Nothing even close.

In fact, like other fans of John Lukacs, they will face cognitive dissonance if they ever read Buchanan’s book, which is critical of one Lukacs hero (Churchill) but is blazoned with a quote from another Lukacs hero, George Kennan.

This is what Kennan wrote to Buchanan, and what you will find on the back of Buchanan’s book:
“you make a strong case, in my view, for the thesis that the British guaranty to Poland . . . was neither necessary nor wise.  The British government could not improve anything by offering to the Poles a support they were quite unable to give.  They would have done better to shut up, to rearm as speedily as possible, and to avoid further formal commitments of any sort, while awaiting the further turn of events.”

Obviously, the word I inadvertently omitted above was “fascism.” Contrary to the hyperventilations of Sid and Adriana, there is nothing in Buchanan’s book suggesting fascism was “really swell, groovy, and cool.”

In fact, this is how Buchanan describes the men who agreed to the Nazi-Soviet pact:  “Hitler won the competition for Stalin’s hand for a reason:  They were brothers under the skin, amoral political animals with blood on their hands who would unhesitatingly betray nations or crush peoples to advance state or ideological interests.”

I trust not even Sid or Adriana would suggest Buchanan has a soft spot for Stalin.  (Of course, Churchill did develop quite a crush on Uncle Joe, but I will leave the defense of Winnie to the Churchill idolaters, of whom I am not one).

Although I intend to write on Pat’s book at a later time, it may be
necessary to point out here that there is nothing in this work that suggests that Hitler
was not an aggressive mass murderer or that we should not have tried to bring him down.
Pat’s comments about Churchill are all heavily documented, and his major revisionist
interest, like mine, is the Great War. Like me, and unlike the neocons, self-hating
German Fischerites, and American liberal Left, Pat does not believe that the Central
Powers were exclusively to blame for that disastrous struggle. He also believes, like
me, Tom Woods, George Kennan, Ralph Raico, John Zmirak, and many others, that the
British blame for that war was at least as great as the German responsibility. Moreover,
the Treaty of Versailles was a nasty, utterly vindictive pseudo-peace that
created the conditions for a second world war. Had Pat written that in the 1950s,
his opinions would hardly have attracted notice.

Taki has missed the great thrust of World War II in Europe.  Stalin’s great butchery of Ukrainian peasants exceeded Hitler’s killing of Jews and was well known in Europe, even if not to those who formed their views from Walter Duranty of the New York Times, whose lying has set the gold standard for mendacity.  Yet young Sulzburger, current publisher of the New York Times, has refused to return his Pulitzer Prize.  Stalin told Harry Hopkins and FDR at Tehran that Petain rather than DeGaulle represented true France.  Not one country in Western Europe favored Stalin over Hitler.

The great butchery during World War II occurred in Asia, most particularly China.  Marine Brigadier General Evans Carlson remembered being informed in May 1938 by Mao that the United States was the great supplier to the Japanese war machine.  American failure to prosecute Hirohito as the great war criminal he was will be brought to us as China strengthens, and we should not look forward to it.

Taki has written about the duties of an aristocracy, but fails to note the absence in the United States.  Nobel laureate Milton Friedman maintained there was no need of a draft because if threatened, more than enough patriotic citizens would volunteer to defend America.  In World War II only one-third of American military forces volunteered.  Milton Friedman was not one of them.  He used the years of war to pursue his doctorate in economics.  American army ground combat divisions had more than 137,000 dead with the five volunteer divisions, the 10th Mountain, and the airborne divisions, the 11th, 17th, 82nd and 101st having 7000 dead, or little more than 5%, true volunteers for the combat arms were about 15%.  Friedman mouthed his nonsense to preserve his sense of masculinity.  He had to have known he was lying, most especially because of the peculiar appeal the war had for him.

Friedman’s great idol Adam Smith judged “the art of war… is certainly the noblest of all arts” which may surprise many who think of Smith solely in economic terms.  Smith thought war the great school for acquiring composure to face death with magnanimity and dignity.  Death was king of terrors, and if fear of death were conquered by man, other natural evils were not likely to excite him.  This continual contempt of danger and death had ennobled the profession of soldier and had bestowed upon this calling a rank and dignity superior to any other profession.  These sentiments, if voiced in any graduate school in the United States, would be ridiculed by entire faculties who would have no problem extolling their virtue and character from the safety of their lounges.  Adam Smith recognized the limits of society driven entirely by greed, and a feeling persists that Milton Friedman and his acolytes have not.  To them there has been no greater God or force than the “market economy”.  The cult of libertarianism has listed Friedman as one of its greater saints.

Taki at one time would take shots at the cowards who dodged the draft of the Vietnam War, but this seems to have abated.  Most of his acolytes at his website admire Friedman more than Smith.  This was written by one who does not support the war in Iraq and believes it to be very much not in American interest.  Yet I retain an admiration for those who will fight.  Regrettably, this website for which I once had hope has become a refuge for right-wing pansies.

As a few bloggers have commented above, one can support the goal of defeating Hitler but still oppose WW 1 and its many persistent side-effects.  The thoughts of a great Canadian Tory philosopher sum up my own position: “When the British ruling class rushed headlong into the holocaust of 1914, they showed their total lack of political wisdom.  Whatever the courage of Churchill in 1940, it must be remembered that he was one of those in the Liberal cabinet of 1914 who pushed their nation into the intemperance of the earlier disaster.” George Grant wrote this in 1965, and it excited no comment then; today it might receive some acerbic commentary from Jaffa’s students who deify Churchill as much as Lincoln.

Someone ealier referred to Alessandra Mussolini. What part of the following do you disagree with?
Decalogue of Values of the Azione Sociale
1.  defending the sacredness of life and family;
2. full defence of national identity while respecting local traditions;
3.  the affirmation of a democracy of parity with the elimination of discrimination that still exists against women;
4. the protection of the handicapped;
5. the defence of Christian roots to be irrevocably included in a rewritten European Constitution;
6. blocking any possibility of enlargement of the EU to countries that do not have the traditions of the European peoples;
7. the clear opposition to communism and liberal capitalism, contributory causes of the current economic and social crisis;
8. the mezzogiorno be construed as national issue as a whole to make it a strategic centre of the Mediterranean;
9.  the establishment of a social and economic policy that goes against the logic of precarious employment, which protects citizens from the cost of credit and, keeps defending the purchasing power of wages against the euro also through the protection of Italian products, establishing a more equitable tax and protection of the weakest social classes;
10. order and security by defending Italians, through a fight against illegal immigration; associating a clear opposition to those who vote for the presence of immigrants and non-Italians in the national territory.

I should have added, this was from: http://www.azionesociale.net/ as translated mostly by Google. I am going to learn Italian, but not yet.

“In fact, like other fans of John Lukacs, they will face cognitive dissonance if they ever read Buchanan’s book,...”

HUMAN SMOKE badly damages both Churchill and Roosevelt. Lukacs’ negative review of the book was very disappointing in that he never attempts a direct rebuttal. Leaving me to believe a defense of Churchill’s character is impossible.

Grant Havers’s quoting of George Grant proves the obvious, namely that the last
dye-in-the-wool Canadian Tory was not a neocon or Jaffaite. It actually astonishes me to
find out how widespread our views about the First World War seem to have been among an
earlier generation of Anglo-Saxon traditionalists.

An addendum to Paul’s comments about George Grant:  It is a sobering fact of our times that a Canadian Tory with strong family roots in the Empire (both of G. Grant’s grandfathers were liberal imperialists) had the insight and detachment to critique the Great War and mourn the terrible loss of lives for a nation with a small population base.  (Out of an 8 million Canadian population base, 61,000 were killed in WW One.  That’s equivalent to a casualty rate of 760,000 US dead per population of 100 million Americans at the same time, according to the journalist Peter Brimelow.) Grant’s sobriety on this issue has been lost on a certain Canadian neocon journalist who coined the term “axis of evil” and criticized his countrymen for not being duly celebratory about their nation’s partcipation in the Great War.

The neoconservative deities--Lincoln, Churchill, FDR, MLK--have a noteworthy commonality:  all of them had little regard for positive law and the limitations it entails.  All are hailed as far-seeing figures who defied ordinary rules, popular opinion, and the natural weariness of democratic peoples for strife out of a supposed far-seeing concern for “natural right.” This disregard for established rules and this elevation of one’s own “private stock of reason” has been the source of much mischief in our times. 

Defending the rule of law--literally, as in not breaking the law or long-established traditions--in order to do the “right thing” should be a conservative imperative.  We should avoid the temptation to “beat liberals at their own game” through such vehicles as extra-legal governmental authority, results-oriented jurisprudence, or rejection of the law to accomplish “obviously right” goals. Abortion clinic bombers aiming to avenge the rights of the innocent are just as dangerous in this regard as Muslim bombers who want to punish us for supporting their corrupt kings or Weatherman bombers who want to punish us for having a few bucks and being white.

So does this mean that we will never read Sid or Adriana’s comments on this site again? If that’s the case, this article gets my vote for greatest post in Takimag’s history.

Let me second George’s comment. If this post rids us of Sid and his girl friend Ad, it will be the most popular in Taki history. Their constant attacks on fellow posters as fascists, racists, and Nazi’s have become tiresome. Let them go back to Daily Kos.

The weird thing is that I don’t know where Sid ever got the idea that this website was
other than what it is.  Knowing who Buchanan and Taki are and what paleoconservatism is,
why did he think that Taki would have any other response to these books than the one
written here?  It really is perplexing.  Hopefully he will take his ball and go
home, which he’s threatened to do so many other times.  If you don’t like a blog,
then you can either try to “save” everyone there by converting them to your own creed
(which Sid has tried to do, to no avail and to the perturbance of many) or you can just
stop reading it and move on.

Havers and Gottfried are trying to divert our attention.  I pray they are doing this unintentionally.  The topic at hand is the purpose and conduct of World War TWO, not World War I. (in the WWI, the Central Powers’ victory would have made for a better world).

Caper thinks I don’t know what Takimag is.  On the contrary, I have shown what it openly has become, and maybe always what it covertly has been. At it ain’t conservative.  Try assorted shades of Brown.

Mr. Piatak is quite correct that the Hamburg Firestorm was the work of the RAF and the war criminal Harris.  The DRESDEN firestorm was “made in the USA”, as were the bombs and plane used in both atrocities.

RonL. is really a joke: There were few Jews in Palistine after 130 A.D. The population at first was Greek and Aramaic speaking pagans. Palistine became a Christian country after Constantine and his mother Helena, built many churches in Palistine. The Emperor Julian the Apostate,tried to rebuild the Temple and let the Jews return. That ended with a complete failure. With the coming of the Muslims in the seventh century, there still remained a large a large Christian community in Palistine. It was about 35% of the population before Israel’s founding. The return of the Jews to Israel has been a disaster for middle eastern Christians. Now the Israelis want to destroy Syria the last place where Christians have true freedom of religion.
The Christian populations of Palistine,Lebanon Iraq, and soon to be Syria have been destroyed by Israli interference in their countries. Frankly the return of the Jews to the middle east has done no one any good, including Jews. All Israel has become is a walled ghetto. No wonder so many Jews have left the place.
RonL. anyone who uses C.E. and B.C.E. is not serious. Even the worthless History Channel doesn’t use them anymore.
Every webbsite that has honest discussion about the middle east has ADL minders who argue drivel to raise eveyone’s blood preasure. We would be banned, if we tried it on a zionist webbsite like Free Republic.

“Havers and Gottfried are trying to divert our attention”?  No, Sid, Paul and I are not part of a conspiracy so immense.  We have been all too clear that one can support the Allies in WW 2 but not the holocaust of WW 1.  We both deplore the cruel idiocy of the Versailles Treaty, but we also firmly believe that the Third Reich had to be destroyed.  Any discussion of WW 2 obviously requires an understanding of its roots in the trenches of the Great War.

Well then, Sid, you should follow your own advice and leave.

Sid,

Do you really think that any of the writers or regular commenters (as opposed to the trolls who seem to have gone away) on this site are looking for an American fuehrer on whom we can bestow absolute authority?  That they’re advocating imperialist expansion by the U.S.?  That they advocate banning speech critical of the government?  That they want to force our major corporations into effective partnership with the government?

That is what fascism is, and there’s nothing of the sort here on Taki mag, despite your constant waving of your so-called “Brown” flag whenever any criticism of Israel or Jews pops up.

RonL. is really a joke: There were few Jews in Palistine after 130 A.D. “
So the Bar Kokhba revolt of 135-7 is a figment or my imagination. Lets assumat that you meant to say 137.

“The population at first was Greek and Aramaic speaking pagans. Palistine became a Christian country after Constantine and his mother Helena, built many churches in Palistine. The Emperor Julian the Apostate,tried to rebuild the Temple and let the Jews return. That ended with a complete failure.”
Except ath the Sanhedrin was restored at Yavneh. And that thing called the “Jerusalem Talmud” on my bookshelf, really isn’t there. Likewise there really was no revolt in 617.
Or maybe you are just wrong.
I never said that there were no Roman colonists. They formed a majority between 620 and 640.

“With the coming of the Muslims in the seventh century, there still remained a large a large Christian community in Palistine. “
And there was a Jewish one. However, whereas the Christian community grow with the Crusades, the Jewish and Samaritan communities, which had been declining were then attacked on all sides.

“ The return of the Jews to Israel has been a disaster for middle eastern Christians. “
Sure. It had nothing to do with the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood after the end of the Caliphate or the failure of Pan-Arabism as an alternative to Islam. It’s not like Michael Aflaq became a Muslim.

“Now the Israelis want to destroy Syria the last place where Christians have true freedom of religion. “
There is no feedom of religion in Syria. It is a totalitarian regime.
Syria is also the great betrayer of Christians in the region, selling out Lebanese Christians. Ironically, Israel tried to be their allies, but this was stopped by the US.

“All Israel has become is a walled ghetto. No wonder so many Jews have left the place. “
Israel now has the largest Jewish population in the World.
Sorry, but you no nothing of the region.

“RonL. anyone who uses C.E. and B.C.E. is not serious. Even the worthless History Channel doesn’t use them anymore. “
I do not use “Anno Domeni” and “Before Christ” because these are religious expressions of Christianity. I respect Christinity too much to disregard an article of faith.

“Every webbsite that has honest discussion about the middle east has ADL minders who argue drivel to raise eveyone’s blood preasure. “
Sorry but I’ve slapped around Foxman. I’m no friend of the ADL.
See my blog. nycright.blogspot.com

RonL.1. Of course I was talking about Bar Kokhba. The Jews started their second revolt in 123 A.D. It became a general revolt in 132 A.D.
By 137 A.D. most Jews had been killed, taken into slavery, or driven off.
2. Palistine was a Christian country when the Muslims came and there remained a large Christian population through the Crusades.
3. I never said there were no Jews in Palistine but it was always a small community, far smaller than the Christian or Muslim populations.
4. Syria allows freedom of religion for its small Jewish community and its much larger Christian community. That includes the right to convert from Muslim to Christian. Most Iraqi Christians have fled to Syria after the zionist invasion of Iraq.
5. The rise of the Muslim extremists is in proportion to the
crimes of Israel against it’s native Palistinian population.It also includes the other crimes of Israel in Lebanon and other parts of the region. The Lebanon Christians sure got a lot of help from dear old Israel.
6. Israel is a walled ghetto from which many Jews have fled. 500,000 live in the USA alone.100,000 have gone back to Russia with more going every day. Many have gone to places like Panama and Germany. Many are fleeing the draft and endless war in Israel.Others see no future in the nasty place that Israel has become. The Israeli government is giving grants to the
Israeli dispora to come home. More
American money down a rathole. Read the Israeli press you might learn something. It is far freeer than then the American press on these issues.
7. B.C.E. means before the
Christian era. C.E. means the Christian era. Ha ha more bs trying to attack and diminish Christianity.
8. It has always been the policy of the zionists to grab as much of Palistine as possible and get rid of the Christian and Muslim populations. They have mostly succeeded with the Christians. What will the final solution for the muslims be?

Far from being fascists, Taki and Pat are the primary nemesis of fascism’s true heirs, the Neocons. The difference between the Nazis and the Neocons is more style than substance, intended victims, and the fact that, in the post WWII era, mass murder is somewhat harder to get away with. Don’t think for a minute that the Neocons wouldn’t happily do to probably a majority of Muslims exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews if they thought they could get away with it. They’d just use different means.
Those shills that rip Pat and Taki as Nazis for providing the world with some hard truths are actually moral cowards abetting a close relative to the creed they profess to hate. History will not judge them kindly. In fact, its already closing in on them, as the above books reviewed by Taki demonstrate. Maybe that’s what have certain critics of this site so riled.

One more point: given that Neocons have misappropriated WWII to advance and enable their own malignant creed, a timely reminder that war is never black and white, and can almost always be averted, is healthy. The cartoonish, Hollywood-ending world that some try to paint of warfare by caricaturizing WWII as The Good War and Nothing But is irresponsible, not to mention immature.

Mr. Piatek,
Having read Human Smoke you are aware that before entering the war Roosevelt encouraged Churchill to attack civilians in small rural towns throughout Germany. The attack on Dresden was planned and eecuted by Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris, the hero of Kirkuk and included both British and American forces.  The US fully supported the British in targeting civilians even before entering the war and provided them with the means to do so.  I don’t see what the big distinction is here. 
The policy of blockade and starvation was also deployed by the Allies against German civilians after WWI and during and after WWII.

“1. Of course I was talking about Bar Kokhba. The Jews started their second revolt in 123 A.D. It became a general revolt in 132 A.D.
By 137 A.D. most Jews had been killed, taken into slavery, or driven off. “

Sorry, but Roman census, wars, and Jewish history say otherwise.

“2. Palistine was a Christian country when the Muslims came and there remained a large Christian population through the Crusades. “
Syria Palestinia was not a country, but a province of the Byzantine Empire. Despite a large Jewish and Samaritan conquered class, it was now Christian dominated and colonized as it was Byzantine. The revolt of 614 failed, because the Persians lost.

“I never said there were no Jews in Palistine but it was always a small community, far smaller than the Christian or Muslim populations. “
In 640, the Muslim population was tiny. You can’t even get basic facts right.

“4. Syria allows freedom of religion for its small Jewish community and its much larger Christian community. That includes the right to convert from Muslim to Christian. Most Iraqi Christians have fled to Syria after the zionist invasion of Iraq.”

Jews and Christians live as long as the Alawite-Druze led Ba’athist regime sees fit. The Syrian Jews are hostiges and the Christian’s freedom is a PR stunt. Taht Syria is not a Sunni Islamist state has to do with Ba’athist brutality and the decision of Hafez Assad to work with Iran.

Last time I checked, Israel was not part of the coalition that invaded Iraq.

“5. The rise of the Muslim extremists is in proportion to the
crimes of Israel against it’s native Palistinian population.”

Most “Palestinains” are not descended from the pre1890 population, but from Arab and non-Arab (Albainain, Bosnian, and Circassian) immigrants who outnumbered Jewish immigrants from 1890-1945.

As for Islamism being caused by this, there was no Israel oppression when Ibn Wahab preached in the 18th century. The Muslim Brotherhood started in 1923, crying about the lost Caliphate and the loss of Spain.

“It also includes the other crimes of Israel in Lebanon and other parts of the region. The Lebanon Christians sure got a lot of help from dear old Israel.”

Actually they did. Right until Israel asceded to world Islamis/Arabist-led opinion to give Lebanon over to Syria, as payment for Assad’s support of Gulf War 1 .

“6. Israel is a walled ghetto from which many Jews have fled. 500,000 live in the USA alone.100,000 have gone back to Russia with more going every day. Many have gone to places like Panama and Germany. Many are fleeing the draft and endless war in Israel.Others see no future in the nasty place that Israel has become. The Israeli government is giving grants to the
Israeli dispora to come home.”

Most Russians returning aren’t Jews. They are 1/4 Jews and their families returning to the Rodina.
This comes from a pathetic Israeli immigration policy that has led to Russian neo-nazi gangs in Israel.

“More
American money down a rathole. “

And it should stop. But Israeli aid is insignificants in a country whose GDP is 170 Billion, while US economic aid is 120 million.

“Read the Israeli press you might learn something. It is far freeer than then the American press on these issues.”

Do you mean the communist Ha’aretz and Idiot Achranot?

“7. B.C.E. means before the
Christian era. C.E. means the Christian era. Ha ha more bs trying to attack and diminish Christianity.”

How is it any different than refusing to say “AH” or After Hegira, instead of “ME” or Muslim Era?
I don’t use ME because I don’t live in the Islamic world. I also don’t respect the pedophile brigand’s cult.

Still, should you go to an Islamic country, by all means, do follow customs that indicate your conversion or multiculturalistic mocking of Islam.

“8. It has always been the policy of the zionists to grab as much of Palistine as possible and get rid of the Christian and Muslim populations. They have mostly succeeded with the Christians. What will the final solution for the muslims be?”

Are you on drugs?
Israel has given up Gaza and the Sinai plus parts of the West Bank.
Christians flee to Israel from those areas Israel gave to the Arabs.

The Muslims are cleansing Bethlehem. Nice to see you support Jihad against Christians behind the Arabist lie or blaming Israel.

Perhaps I was wrong, and you aalready to say “AH”, but mean it.

This correspondence is getting sillier every day,RonL. The Muslims and Christians lived mostly in peace in Palistine for centuries. Since Israel’s founding the discrimination against Christians has greatly increased in both the Muslim and Jewish communities. I think most unbiased observers would blame the Jews for most of the problems. the Muslim birthrate is much higher than the Christians as well. the Christians have have friends in Europe and America who have taken them in as well. You didn’t give Gaza back you just made it into a fenced concetration camp where you are trying to starve and punish the residents into leaving. The same thing you doing with your racist policies on the West Bank. You were forced into giving back the Sinai because Sadat had won half of it back in the 73 war. We can thank Jimmy Carter, for getting the 2 old terrorists Sadat and Begin together and pushing through a deal. Most Arab Christians, I know, have nothing good to say about the Israeli’s. With all due respect, almost everything you write is twisted from reality. You remind me of the Israeli ambassador to the UN, who couldn’t put 2 true words together, if he tried.

American money down a rathole. “

And it should stop. But Israeli aid is insignificants in a country whose GDP is 170 Billion, while US economic aid is 120 million.

RonL, the Israeli gov receives over $3 billion every year from the US taxpayer (not counting off- and black budget money), with well over $1 billion in economic aid.  It is hard to estimate the price of the US gov’s threats to annilate any country who does not toe the neo-con line, but the US centgov’s intrusion in the are does not benefit either Israel or the local Arab states.  Are you equally in favor of the US centgov become neutral in the Middle East, as you are in wanting DC to stop foreign to the region’s govs?

Sorry, the word “aid” should come after the word “foreign” in my previous post.  ST