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Entry: Putin Beyond the Propaganda Link: http://www.takimag.com/site/article/putin_beyond_the_propoganda#17859 Post contents: Well, I did not expect to get a straight answer from Mr. Sid Cundiff no matter what I answered. Some believe he is unhinged and some a deliberate saboteur and propogandist. I have watched his "style" and it follows the same pattern on this and other sites. The name calling and interjection of fancy words (even some impressive sounding Latin) when confronted with strong counterarguments. I tend to believe saboteur and propogandist. I thank Mr. Capp for addressing my specific points, though I don't necessarily agree with those responses. My point was that we can look at a people in many different ways in order to guess as to whether the majority of them is Christian and whether their culture reflects a general Christian attitude. This can only be a guess because, unlike the Almighty, we have no means for accurately surveying an individual's true faith. Formulaic counts of church attendance and so forth may sway our opinion but are at some point limited themselves. I think several people have brought up several indicators that may sway us to believe that both Russia and Serbia have seen a significant increase in Christian observance and reflect general Chrsitian cultural attributes. That specifically addresses Sid Cundiff's argument, though he may continue to scream at all of us about "data" and "reasoanble doubt". Some things are not meant to be and are impossible to prove in a court of law - a nations Christian character being one of those things. I believe Mr. Capp's definition of what determines a Christian nation is too rigid and illogical, and unworkable. I don't know of any leadership that takes all of its orders from the Pope. Furthermore, even if we agree that taking orders from the Pope is what determines Christian character, then what if a leadership takes those orders and the majority of the nation remains aetheist despite the efforts of the leadership. Is this a Christian nation? At that point, Mr. Capp's formula clearly collapses. The arrogant references to schismatics does not help a genuine dialogue, Mr. Capp. Orthodox may equally believe that the Catholics are Schismatics. Personally, as an Orthodox Christian, I trully hope for a workable reconciliation even if a full communion is impossible (and, from my view, it seems impossible, though I am not an expert on theology and church hierarchy as pertaining to papal infallibility). I will also remind you that Pope Benedict also said this week: "I rejoice in the progress that has been made in relations between Orthodox and Catholic Christians, and I am especially grateful to the Serbian Orthodox Church for graciously hosting the 2006 meeting of the mixed commission for theological dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox, with the active support of senior members of your Government," Pace Sid Cundiff (the Pope provided no footnotes listing all the facts)...the church of Serbia, its government, and many other Orthodox churches and governments have worked with the Orthodox eccumencial patriarchate to foster good relations and achieve a workable reconciliation with Rome. It is simply in the interests of all traditional Christians who value Europe's/Christendom's survival more than scoring wins in pointless inter-denominational squabbling. My question regarding nationalism and "ultranationalism" was meant to shine light on Sid Cundiff's rehash of popular media terminology that is empty in meaning and meant as a code word to tarnish reputations. Those politicians that the US can easily manipulate will be referred to as "pro-western" and "democratic" while leaders that look out for their own people first and foremost are always "nationalists"...and if they happen to openly go against American dictates in the process of upholding their people's interests then they are "ultranationalists". Allow me to also comment on frames of reference. The need for many to apply rigid rules, formulae, and statistics to areas of life that do not lend themselves to such scientific treatment is a curious odditity of the (Latin) west, in my opinion. They often lead to the incoherence of the above: attempting to measure which nations are Christian and which are not. This is ludicrous. There are indicators, but their is no absolute measure. And, in his frame of reference, Sid Cundiff will never get a satisfactory answer because it is impossible to produce one that stands up to the rules of his "court" framework. I would wonder how Mr. Cundiff would prove in a court of law that he loves his spouse. Perhaps the statistics would demonstrate that he purchased for her flowers every month that they were married, perhaps there is a statistic for the number of times he held her hand. But in the end, it would be impossible to prove like a traditional court case, science experiment, or mathematical proof. You can make a leap and infer something, but not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. Life is rich with mystery and the Orthodox, for whom mysticism is an integral part of faith, I think better understand the futility of applying science to everything. And that's what is essentially being argued here. This is not meant as some sort of put down of Catholics; it is merely an observation and I believe a relevant one given the conversation had here. In closing, my hope is for true Christian understanding amongst all that allows us to end needless infighting and focus on the real external obstacles that have compromised our lives and threaten to destroy our civilization. Alienating a country such as Russia and carving up Serbia to serve it up to thugs and Muslims ony moves us closer towards that collapse. Sent at: 2008 05 16