Translation:  I have cited hoaxes, completely misinterpreted my heroes like Pat Buchanan and Murray Rothbard to try to prove a point that they both disagreed with, and havce made arguments that anyone who would have read the introduction to statistics 101 would have realized is idiotic; but I call anyone who disagrees with me a pseudoscientist.

Now that everyone single argument I’ve made has been demolished, I’m just going to say that to make some plattitudes about “wisdom and intelligence” and talk about how bad John McCain is.

Just admit you have no clue what you’re talking about, and stick to talking about foreign policy.

“I distrust anyone who raises the banner of “science” when it comes to making public policy: I can’t help but think of “scientific” socialism and the “science” of Marxism-Leninism—and I want to reach for my revolver, to coin a phrase.”

With all due respect, isn’t libertarianism similarly an ideology [science of ideas]?

Justin, the person who explained the difference between “wisdom and intelligence” was me.

Not one person has claimed that intelligence is all that matters.

And yes, Obama will be better on foreign policy than McCain.

He will also be worse on immigration (if that’s possible,) judges, the economy etc.

Frankly, I could care less. 

But I don’t see how the fact that the neoconservatives don’t like Obama has anything to do with “racist pseudo science”

Except insofar as anyone who says anything you don’t like about Obama is tarred as a racist.

“Obama’s candidacy is a real slap in the face to those who have invested an awful lot in the Bell Curve thesis of black genetic disability.”

Nope, still don’t get it.  No single individual can be a “slap in the face” or any sort of proof against a distribution of a measured value across a group.  Mr. Obama may very well be at the tippy-top of the bell curve (I doubt it), but that says precisely nothing about the shape of the curve, its median or anything else, particularly black genetic disability.  There are plenty of other reasons not to choose Mr. Obama without reference to his IQ.

I would guess Obama has an IQ of 130 as well.  When Obama was in charge of the Harvard Law Review it was the least cited year in its history.  Despite being editor of the Law Review and having taught at the University of Chicago, he never wrote a single scholarly article.  He’s smart for a mulatto, but you know what they say about a Dog walking on his hind legs.

Marcus, you’re just gonna have to decide which is more important: the “National Question” or the War Question.

I’m not sure what to call someone who puts race at the center of their belief-system. I used the word “racialist.” You can choose your own terminology: how about genetic determinist? At any rate, I’d like to know what are the policy implications of Bell-Curve-ism. Given your thesis - that whites are smarter, on average, than blacks—then what?

“...the mystery of human existence,” I knew never Justin Raimondo was a mystic.

I’m also surprised to learn that Raimondo supports Barack Obama and considers him to be the “great Transcender.” Exactly, what does Barack transcend?

If we take Obama at his word then there is no question that he will be better on the war than McCain, and consequently better for the economy, because it’s the war—and the concern over another war—that is causing high oil prices and irresponsible spending. As long as we stay in Iraq we won’t be able to tackle in other major issue—immigration, spending, taxes. Ending the war in Iraq should be everyone’s number one priority.

Even if Obama intends to get us out of Iraq, I doubt he has enough fortitude to go against the entire military industrial-complex, the Neocons, and those in his own party who will tell him that it is folly to leave Iraq unfinished.

Raimondo’s opposition to racialism seems partly tactical and partly aesthetic—it prevents the right from making alliances with the anti-war left and it wreaks of old fashion racism. However, neither tactics nor aesthetics have anything to do with the truth.

I’m afraid that Raimondo still isn’t clear about where he stands on racial differences. Is he saying:
1) There are no inherited racial differences in intelligence, or
2) There are inherited racial differences, but they don’t matter from a political perspective because we should treat everyone as individuals, or
3) There are inherited racial differences and they do matter, but they are not as important as ending the war in Iraq and destroying America’s imperial colossus.

“I have a special antipathy for the “white nationalists” because they deliberately made an awful lot of trouble for the Ron Paul campaign, loudly proclaiming their support for Ron and then going to The New Republic and giving the Bad Guys plenty of ammunition for their smear campaign”

Way to pass the blame!  It was you who stabbed Paul in the back when you screamed about his “disgraceful ad”.  You, who are all about the war, the war and the war, suddenly decided that the immigration issue was important when Dr. Paul ran that ad. 

You cared more about some Iranian kid getting to study in the US than you did about the Paul campaign or US security.  You could have ignored the issue and focused on the war, but you decided to break character and attack the best candidate we had.

This not an accusation, but a honest question for you, Raimondo. I read that the American Renaissance was one of the sources for the black crime statistics in the Ron Paul newsletters. I would be please to know the truth or the complexties of my question. Also, why was a follower of Von Mises philosphy using statistics anyway. Were they deductive in nature, or the fact they were not from a state institution. I’am not setting trap for you, I just want to know. I consider you the authority on this topic, and since your oppotents are going to bring it up anyway. You might as well answer someone who does not have an invested interest in this subject. For I just like to piss people off, and I’am trying to quit that nasty habit. I’am not attacking you, I just have an interest. Since Ron Paul received a lot of baseless accusations, I want to know if this is one of them. You did not mention the American Renaissance controversy in your article refuting the newsletters charges, so I what to know the truth, if there is any, to this controversy.

“You cared more about some Iranian kid getting to study in the US than you did about the Paul campaign or US security.”

Maybe it never occurred to you that Justin saw the potential for the ad to play into the hands of the middle-east hating neocons?

Some racialists are going to vote for Obama, including perhaps myself. See

http://mansizedtarget.wordpress.com/2008/05/01/an-obama-presidency-will-radicalize-white-america/

Let’s not conflate the issue of whether to vote for Obama with whether blacks in general have the same IQ as whites.

What should the state do if there are genetic differences –of any kind- among its citizens? Why, nothing.

A more interesting question, because of the association of race and slavery in America is: do the descendants of slaves have rights to any kind of restitution? Similarly does the state owe anything to the Native Americans (“Indians”) whose ancestors were nearly exterminated and who were chased off the land?

Should the state transfer income or implement some form of preferential treatment in order to redress past wrongs?  If so, how much and for how long?

Marcus Epstein writes:
And yes, Obama will be better on foreign policy than McCain.

He will also be worse on immigration (if that’s possible,) judges, the economy etc.

It’s not possible. The war is killing the economy to feed the empire, the judges he wants are those who apply the law and will admit Roe v Wade is the law, and he was the Republican leader who lead the Kennedy/McCain immigration initiative. Your mentor, Pat, is an honorable man and has been a dogged defender of conservatives for years. McCain has been one of his most underhanded and dishonest critics. Quit carrying water for the duopoly. Let them fight each other to the death and save your ammo, beans and band-aids for your own people.

Well, well, well…

The Weekly Standard in its May 19, 2008 edition published an exciting piece about Jeremiah Wright and his magazine, Trumpet Newsmagazine.

Have you read it Justin? The church that the savior of foreign policy for America Obama attended for 20 years is nothing more than an afro-centric, black liberation institute, that publishes a magazine full of asinine and silly theories, that Mary Lefkowitz bravely refuted in “Not out of Africa.”

Whether you want to believe it or not, race exists and will always be a painful reminder to all that egalitarianism is a myth and equality a hurtful lie.

Talking openly about race is what Obama has desired, and more importantly, what this nation needs.

When that grownup talk happens, I hope Jared Taylor has a seat at the table.

I have it on good authority that a room at the Mises Institute exists that has Rothbard’s personal collection of books on race, that Lew Rockwell has hidden away (but members of the institution have seen and told me about).

Underlined in the books are passages that detail the truth about race, with passages highlighted and Rothbard’s own handwriting saying, “Yes, yes,” to paragraphs delineating racial differences, that he agreed with.

Race matters. It will always matter.

Justin, I’ve had the pleasure of meeting you before and find you to be very pleasant. Your writings on the Lobby, foreign policy and questions regarding war and legitimacy are excellent and erudite.

But you are blinded by viewing the world as collection of individuals, merely walking around trying to profit of one another and ensuring that capitalism survive, even if those who invented these ideas of liberty, individual rights and, more importantly, Western Civilization - vanish.

The Ron Paul movement was largely made up of disgruntled white people fed up with this government. Paul failed to gain momentum with people in Iowa and New Hampshire, because he didn’t tap into the same energy that Buchanan did in 92 and 96.

I’m glad though, that you are at least talking with people here at Takimag on this vital issue. The Rockwellites appear to be thumbing their nose at the salvo VDARE fired at them.

“Translation:  I have cited hoaxes, completely misinterpreted my heroes like Pat Buchanan and Murray Rothbard to try to prove a point that they both disagreed with, and havce made arguments that anyone who would have read the introduction to statistics 101....”

Jason - hit the nail on the head.

“I have it on good authority that a room at the Mises Institute exists that has Rothbard’s personal collection of books on race, that Lew Rockwell has hidden away (but members of the institution have seen and told me about).

Underlined in the books are passages that detail the truth about race, with passages highlighted and Rothbard’s own handwriting saying, “Yes, yes,” to paragraphs delineating racial differences, that he agreed with.”

I also heard an equally true tale about a secret room at the Vatican where they hid evidence that Jesus was just human and that he married Mary Magdalene and that they had children who became the Knights Templar, who then were shipped off by UFO’s, at the order of the Illuminati

Let’s be honest.

Disgruntled older white people, foolishly listened to their talk radio messiahs and pulled the lever for Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee. 

Young white people rallied around Paul.

Young folks drawn to the ideas found in paleo circles are overwhelmingly uninterested in racial differences as a driving political issue.  I do not want to put words in Prof. Gottfrieds mouth, but this may have been one of the distinctions he was pointing to between paleos and the more “Old Right"-centric post-paleos.

I agree that the failure of Dr. Paul’s campaign to push the immigration issue cost him votes.  On the other hand at least Dr. Paul was willing to give an interview to VDare, which is more than I can say for the other immigration hawks in the race (Marcus can correct me on this if I am wrong, but when I asked him during a local radio appearance he conceded as much before suggesting that low vote totals for Tancredo and Hunter was troubling for anti-illegal immigration voters).

The people citing Rothbard in defense of hardcore biological determinism miss the point.  Rothbard may have believed in racial differences.  Most people do, to one degree or another (in fact most black power activists of the 60’s did, though their arguments went in the opposite direction..people forget King was largely an exception to this).  That said, Rothbard also believed that the original sin of slavery had done harm to the Republic and that the inner-city hellholes cultivated by the welfare-warfare state were also a serious problem for blacks.  He rightfully advocated community control and secession as a means for blacks to escape these problems and yes fend for themselves, lower IQs or not. 

To this end Rothbard was willing to make tactical alliances with the New Left AND the certain segments of the racialist right.  This is not surprising if one is willing to read Rothbard, though few who comment on his politics, strategy or views on these matters seem interested in that (may I suggest Rothbards essay(s) on David Duke to those willing to prove me wrong).

I have been told in another thread, that Jared Taylor in fact favors a localist approach to political action based around the “National Question” and racial identity.  If this is true, and Mr. Taylor no longer favors the federal death penality for drug dealers and forced sterilization, then I will consider him an ally regardless of his views on race.  I suspect Justin feels the same.

Dylan

P.S.  I still think Justin gives Obama and his campaign WAY too much credit, and I won’t be pulling the lever for him, even if most of the Rev. Wright stuff is nonsense that would be excused by many of Obama’s biggest critics if the shoe were on the other foot.

At the end of the day, all these racialist questions are irrelevant. What does matter is that we stand a very real chance of having a would-be Dr.Strangelove megalomaniac, hell bent on “other wars,” as our next president. I know Obama is a statist, socialist, a probable closet black nationalist, etc, but I’d gladly have him over the “Maverick” and his dastardly plans to invade the rest of the world, and ruin our economy and shred the rest of the Constitution while he is at it. I hope people truly appreciate what is at stake this October.

As for old Jeremiah Wright, as Lew Rockwell pointed out, the guy was taken to task for not worshiping the state, not for his silly racial remarks. Besides, which is more scary, an association with Wright or an association with Max Boot, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol and the rest of the neocon rabble of the Weekly Standard and FOX News?

And, by the way, I don’t think that an idea that could put one’s career at risk is necessarily the measure of its worth. I do think, however, that any movement that makes a big deal about race is going to pretty much confine itself to members of one race—and that’s not a good thing, as far as the freedom movement is concerned.

Why does this have to be the case?  The NAACP was founded by 5 Jews and 1 Mulatto.  .  The Democratic Party’s involvement with black and Mexican racialists hasn’t stopped it from winning the Asian and Jewish vote.  True, you don’t see many minorities drawn to white nationalism today.  Why stick up for a people that won’t stand up for themselves?  Still, if there was a mainstream movement, I think a white nationalist platform of traditional moral values, ending affirmative action, stopping welfare and stopping America from becoming Brazil would appeal to some high IQ Asians and Arabs who came here by choice.  From personal experience a lot of immigrants shake their heads at the white man’s masochism.  The fact that Mexicans and especially Blacks are drawn to race baiting politicians is a good enough reason in and of itself for a white racial consciousness.

“The fact that Mexicans and especially Blacks are drawn to race baiting politicians is a good enough reason in and of itself for a white racial consciousness.”

Just because Many blacks and Mexicans make racist jackasses of themselves doesn’t mean we have too also.  If my neighbor robs a bank I don’t go all complaining “But he robbed a bank so why can’t I?!”

Just because Many blacks and Mexicans make racist jackasses of themselves doesn’t mean we have too also.  If my neighbor robs a bank I don’t go all complaining “But he robbed a bank so why can’t I?!”

A better analogy is somebody from another neighborhood is robbing YOU, and you fail to form a neighborhood watch program out of a fear of being called collectivist.

How is a “white nationalist platform” not reverse affirmative action, Dmytro?

Justin,
It’s a little disheartening to
see you dote on a candidate that
has you fooled.
How can you call yourself a
Libertarian and support a statist
like Obama that we all know is
lying through his teeth?
Politics makes for strange bed-
fellows but what’s in it for you?

How is a “white nationalist platform” not reverse affirmative action, Dmytro?

Fire has to be fought with fire.  If Mexicans and blacks (together they’ll be the majority soon, BTW) renounce racial politics I’ll do the same.  I don’t think that will happened though because the dream of a post racialist society is even more kooky than a classless one.  The choice now is a society with competing interests or one where everybody competes except whites. 

And white nationalists will make alliances with paleocons and libertarians while black and Mexican racists won’t because we don’t need government help to get the best jobs or best schools and neighborhoods.  We can get them on merit.

Speaking of measuring intelligence, there are those who hold that among Indo-Europeans the Germanics are superior, while the Slavs, Italians and Greeks are at the low end of the scale.

Or is that passee now?

“Fire has to be fought with fire.”

So revenge is the answer to everything?  Evil must be met with more evil, right?  So tell me again why you are NOT a neocon

“Speaking of measuring intelligence, there are those who hold that among Indo-Europeans the Germanics are superior, while the Slavs, Italians and Greeks are at the low end of the scale.”

You are correct… in the past and even still today Southern and Eastern Europeans were/are considered “inferior stock” by White Nationalists.

Got anything to say to that, Dmytro Kornilov?  How does it feel to be second class?

Justin. 

It’s pointless arguing with you, because whenever you are proven wrong you simply come up with something else to argue about. 

These two blog posts are literally the closest I’ve come to writing about genetics and race in my life.  In fact as I have made pains to point out, I haven’t even been arguing that those differences are there, but simply that your arguments are spurious.
So with these two posts, suddenly I’m a “genetic determinist”

The only article I’ve ever written about genetics was a piece on foreign policy and sociobiology.

Nowhere did I discuss IQ, and my conclusions were in favor of a non-interventist foreign policy.

That is one of the policy implications of my “genetic determinism”

What is disheartening is that Marcus Epstein draws his paycheck from Tom Tancredo.

Jerry,

You’re obviously hysterical on this issue and that can be seen by you throwing every argument you can (race differences don’t exist, they do but lets not talk about it, HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE INFERIOR, etc).  My point is that living in a society where race matters, appealing to and talking about race is basic self defense.  White conservatives have tried to take the high road for fifty years and have ended up with a political culture where advocating freedom of association and color blind government policies is the right wing extremist position.  Also, as others have pointed out to you, black underachievement is often taken as evidence of discrimination and is the fuel that drives much anti-white policy.  Talking about race and IQ is at its start a defense against this slander thrown at whites by liberals and minorities from those of us in the political minority. 

And I don’t lose any sleep over the fact that Germans probably have a slightly higher IQ than my ethnic group does, just as I’m sure Nordic white nationalists don’t lose any sleep over the fact that they have lower IQs than Koreans.  You seem to be like Raimondo, assuming that everybody will have the same emotional breakdown that you have when considering and talking about the un PC facts.  Read the literature about this, think about it carefully, and I’m sure you’ll realize that it’ll all be ok.

Justin’s other hero besides Rothbard is Pat Buchanan, look where he comes down

http://www.theamericancause.org/103007-print.htm

Dmytro, I don’t care to discuss about “white nationalism”, not because its politically incorrect, but because I don’t believe in dumb and infantile superstitions.  Get it through your head that you are an individual, if you don’t like it then go join North Korea or Al Sharpton or any other mentality based group.

By the way, there is no such thing as the “white” race.  Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese are much closer racially than say, an Italian and an Irishman.  So if your going to go on about racial superiority, at least be specific about which one, whether it be German or Welsh or French or....

Oops, did I just blurt the uncomfortable fact that even White nationalists are mostly mixed blood, as well as those called “Hispanics” (Who are Spanish, Portugese, Mayan, Aztec, and any other dozen combinations) And even what we call Africans are not one race (In Africa different tribes can seperate each other just by looking at each other, so I can assure you that even in Africa the races there are numerous)

I mentioned this before but I wanted to do some searching for visual references:  Here we can see how in Africa alone we have diversity of posture and looks:  South African tiny.cc/lN49L West African tiny.cc/ACfor North-Eastern African tiny.cc/n8ha0 Central African Pygmies tiny.cc/6QfF5 Now, I also mentioned earlier how races are constantly changing over time, even if they stay among themselves, and here are some pictures of African races who, thousands of years ago, migrated towards the Pacific areas.  Notice how much they have changed from their African counterparts, in fact their dark skin is almost the only common similarity:  Melanesians tiny.cc/YWNlF Aboriginals tiny.cc/5fibP Negrito tribes tiny.cc/T3N2V

Boys, boys, this is getting silly. We are never going to be a white republic, anymore than Israel is going to be a pure Jewish one. We should limit our goals to getting rid of affirmative action and for equal treatment for all. If Obama is elected president,how can they keep saying blacks haven’t got equal chances? For 30 years in the construction business, I had to squander money babysitting for minority subcontractors on public works contracts. I can assure you it is a total waste of time and money. I had plenty of excellent minority construction people [ that I trained ] but it is time to put all that away. I think it is a winning issue even among minorities. Michigan and California have gotten rid of them by referenda vote. The goal should be equal treatment for all.If we could get rid of mandated quotas. It would be a great day. I would just like whites to treated as equals. The law should be color blind. We have set up a system of racial castes similar to India, South Africa, Mexico, Brazil, or the Carribean. Here are a few racial caste names from around the world,brahmin, untouchable, peninsulares, crillos, mestizos, zambos, creoles. quatroon, octoon, cape colored, half breed, and dozens more. Read some affirmative action reports I filed with government, they have many racial catagories.
We can’t change the future racial mix, but we can push for equal rights,everybody else does it

Lets concentrate on a few issues, bring the troops home, end affirmative action now, ending most immigration, return to state control on social issues, sane economic policy, reducing government. We need a third party to push our program or we have to take over the Republicans.

We can never win on a racialist program. It is way too late for that. We must push sane policies on these issues and I think we can get a majority. After all the Democrats stand for are is government waste, homosex, abortion, high taxes, and kissing Israel’s ass. The Republicans are for endless war for Israel, government waste, winking at the homosex agenda, doing nothing on abortion and increasing government on all levels. I agree with Justin that our best bet is Obama. He is against the war and we can fight him on all the other issues. How can he justify affirmative action when he sits in the White House? Of course I will never vote for the guy myself.

Many good points made, Jack

Jack,

Latinos often act in the best interests of Latinos.

Blacks for blacks. Jews for Jews. Even East Asians are beginning to do the same…

The future of America is Balkanisation. The sooner whites begin acting in their best interests, the better off they’ll be in America.

Ethnic politics is America’s destiny.

Jack,

affirmative action exists because 1. many minorities believe they are truly discriminated. 2. there is money to be made in it.

They aren’t going to just give up their special rewards… If Obama is chosen president, their leaders, whom they follow, will likely just point to him and say: “see we are just as good. The disparity is due only to discrimination and a difference in environment. Government must correct for this.”

---

Old stock Americans and their kin need to view themselves as a nation, and need to view the current American government as foreign. Only then will things improve.

“affirmative action exists because 1. many minorities believe they are truly discriminated. 2. there is money to be made in it.”

No, affirmative action exists because of men like LBJ, who I also bet believed that minorities had lower IQ’s, hence the reason he saw a need for an equalizer policy.

See?  your ideas of IQ ethnic theory, whether true or not, are a double edged sword.

At any rate, I’d like to know what are the policy implications of Bell-Curve-ism. Given your thesis - that whites are smarter, on average, than blacks—then what?

Mr. Raimondo, if that was a question and not an assertion, then you can find a very lucid set of answers in Michael Levin’s Why Race Matter’s.  In fact, his introductory chapter is titled “`So What?’”.  Levin discusses the implications not only of intelligence, but of traits such as time preference as well. 

My main objection to the book was Levin’s often implicit libertarian bias, but if you can get over that problem, I think you might find the book very worthwhile.  It corrects many of the fallacies and straw men in your posts which commenters here have noted, plus others that haven’t been discussed here.  I strongly recommend the book, if for no other reason than to understand the arguments you are opposing.

Usually affirmative action is argued as needed to balance out discrimination.

I hadn’t realised LBJ believed it was necessary to raise up a less intelligent group.

Why attempt to raise them up if there will be a perpetual need for government to maintain them? He was then promoting amalgamation?

I’ll be sure to look into LBJ’s reasons. I… tend to ignore leaders like him because, well, they make me sick. Thanks for the recommendation.

Read Raimondo and witness the supreme arrogance of the post-racialist.

Never mind that all of the civilizations of history were built by particular conscious races of men.

No! Now we must discard that entire track record. Now and forever more...the great civilizations will be created by a Mix Of All Races Acting As World People.

All hail the World People! Diversity is strength!

“Why attempt to raise them up if there will be a perpetual need for government to maintain them?”

But that was the whole point!  LBJ was like any other big government believer.... big government for big government’s sake.  Unlike the free market, the believers in perpetual big government want just that… to keep it expanding at an infinite rate, and to hell with what that means on normal citizens.

“Never mind that all of the civilizations of history were built by particular conscious races of men.”

Oh really?  And what “one race” was Alexander’s empire composed of?  And what “one race” was the Roman empire composed of?  And what “one race” was the United States in 1776 composed of?  And what “one race” was The Persian empire under Cyrus the Great composed of?  And what “one race” was China composed of during the Qing Dynasty?

Good points Jerry! How about a few more Spain a mix of many races. Portugal,mostly the same mix, and both mixed freely with all the races they conquered. The British and French empire were founded by men who mixed freely as well. Look to Haiti Martinique and Quebec. for the British look at the West Indies and the American south. The British were 3 warring tribes who conquered the 1/4 of world and now are reduced to a couple of small islands. The American empire was plenty big on North America. We should have never left our shores starting with Hawaii and the Spanish American wars. Like all empires we became a great melting pot of races. The reason we are so mixed racially is because we are a worldwide empire.

The foregoing provides a rich feast to comment on. First point, stop beating up on Marcus—posters here are putting words in his mouth. Second point, none of you really know how you’re going to vote until McCain unveils his nominee for Vice President. His cancer and his testiness predict a repeat of the popular populist campaign song, “Tippecanoe & Tyler Too.” I don’t want any home visits, but keep in mind that the VP nominations this time around are of vast importance, much more than these weird IQ issues along with the hate whitey vocabulary that has infected TakiMag.

“So revenge is the answer to everything?  Evil must be met with more evil, right?  So tell me again why you are NOT a neocon?”

This jerry guy is the worst of the liberal McCarthyites I have seen anywhere. I certainly wasn’t expecting to see him here.

Racial differences exist.

A single mulatto that defies them is not good PR for this reality, but that is precisely why the MSM (and this Raimondo guy) and his little lapdog jerry promote him so much.

Jerry may be right about LBJ, but racial preferences were only accepted by a significant share of the American people in the expectation that they would be temporary. If LBJ understood the science of racial differences, he defrauded the American people on that issue. Almost no one signed on for perpetual preferential treatment for nonwhites. If people realize that racial preferences cannot accomplish the stated goal of eventually making themselves unnecessary, white support for them will become indefensible. That’s why we need the science of IQ differences. How much longer do we want to tolerate this particular fraud of the Sixties leftists?

Justin Raimondo, the ‘champion of the old right,’ who is the leading cheerleaders for a democrat-socialist, who refuses to learn and understands the amassing evidence of racial differences.

This guy belongs on the Huffingtonpost.

Marcus Epstein’s response was brilliant.

It seems that there is only one person defending this earth-is-flat position of Raimondo: ‘jerry.’

Could the two be one? I see no one else here stooping so low…

Mr.Raimondo has bought the Brooklyn bridge of politics - he thinks St. Barack is going to end the Iraq war! Ha! Mr. Obama is so in hock to the Zionist lobby that he has even outdone Hillary Clinton in saber rattling aginst Iran.

Jupiter,

You are an idiot.  Learn how to spell. 

Phil,

Stick to discussing the issue at hand instead of making baseless accusations about who “Jerry” really is.

Roger,
Concerning your statement that no one has ever built a civilization that is not race-consciuos, you’re a damned fool.  Someone has already pointed out the Empire of Alexander, the Roman Empire is also a good example.  Finally, some One did found a lasting, perfect society that is completely race-unconscious.  The Catholic Church, founded by her Divine Founder transcends all races and cultures.  Thats not to say that individual cultures or races have no importance; but something so silly as race has to be low on the totem-pole.  The one thing to remember as you sit locked away in your basement concocting the mythical return of the “White Nation” is that every white, black, hispanic, and asian have an immortal soul to save, are infinitely loved by God and are equal in His eyes.  I realize that means very little to you.  I would venture your theorizing means very little to Him.

Cano: Have to agree, we are all equal in Gods eyes. The zionazis and the neonazis will both lose. There is only one race the human race. Jesus and his Church are the one universal institution, for the unity of all mankind.

Marcus Epstein,
“Justin, the person who explained the difference between “wisdom and intelligence” was me.”
I was the person who made the point about a possibly significant difference between intelligence and wisdom, and your response by no means explained that difference.  Please go back to the thread and look at the material on the traditional (modern) Western concept of “folly.”

Some people on here sound like something straight out of the “Camp of the Saints”
Whites aren’t a race,have no history, greeks and romans aren’t part of our history,
doesn’t matter if we go extinct,etc.

New Jersey: It is just facing reality. Our goal should be to stop almost all immigration and let the melting pot turn into fondue. I think that is Pat Buchanan’s idea. We are never going to be the white republic that some here want. I am as big a redneck as there is here. I was at George Wallace’s first appearence outside the south in 1964. He got a rousing reception that made front pages and news shows all over the world. I didn’t go on purpose. I just happened to be riding by and saw all the black pickets. Always looking for a fight, I went right in. The speech was over but Wallace was shaking hands. I went to the bar and had a drink and missed the chance to shake a great American’s hand. Wallace and I eventually faced reality and tried to live in the new world. Wallace was a good Christian, who was never a racist and neither was I. It was more about protecting our neighborhood. Its a mixed race society now. We have to work within the system to protect our basic rights.

Original Jack,

Every ethnic group in America lobbies its interests.

America is a white nation.

If you amalgamate it, creating a “fondue”, you create an entirely new nation.

What you are suggesting is not the preservation of America as it is but its utter destruction and replacement by a new nation that’s never been.

Nonwhites are never going to identify with the founders in large numbers. Can you blame us American whites for attempting to preserve and restore what we can? Such is not inherently unChristian. Christianity is not Marxist…

I can’t wait until Jupiter and Phil pass away, and they then see Jesus face to face and see that he is not white

Oh man THAT is gonna piss them off!

No doubt their reaction will be “God isn’t white?!  Well F*CK this place!  I’d rather take the other option!”

The trend can be reversed. No amnesty. Mass deportation; 0 asian,muslim hispanic and african immigration; apply a cordon sanaiaire policy to Southern Caifornia,Southern Florida and towns and cities across America that have been colonize; let these areas fester and rot,rot,rot and rot.

When the reality of resurce scarcity hits full blown, it will will blast its’ way into the skulls of the majority White American population. When they realize that their children have no future in America,extreme intolerance will be shown towards the predatory asian LEGAL immigrant.Lifeboat ethics will be the norm. Spain eventually kicked out the muslims.

Right after 9/11, the asian “American” community began to publicly issue threats of political rtaliation if the majority Native Born White population made any attempt to shut down the hated H-1B visa,L-1 visa program and asian legal immigration. This threat was made twice on the Lou Dobbs and at least once on the front pages of the NYT. Vdare.com never covered this.

I have a deep interest in conservation biology. I can tell you this. California, the state with the largest concentration of endemic-occiu no where else on the planet-will at some time commit ecocide. Sprawl has reached the mountain ranges around LA where some of these endangered and edemic species live. Post-1965 Non-whites are tripled up in the LA suburbs. Eventually there will be a breakout from the overpopulated suburbs of LA. The same can be said for San Diego and the Silicon Valley area. It will all be gone,gone,gone...gone for ever.

Without Dr. Francis around, it’s rather confusing as to where the boundaries are within the paleo movement. I think no one, outside of the few pointed out earlier, wishes to stir up problems or “troll”.

Libertarians might not like the idea, but unified groups are always more powerful than divided individuals. This is a rule I think Gottfried knows well. And there will always be ethnic and religious groups.

Such doesn’t inherently mean Christians need to act unChristian. But we ought to at least defend our own as others defend theirs and infringe on ours.

We all want smaller government, an end to the Federal Reserve, an end to foreign intervention, and less immigration… So, there is common agreement… We’d all prefer Paul to McCain or Obama.

It seems these rough political alliances though… are damaging in the culture war. One side, the right wing side, is expected to go mute while a coalition is built around the left wing side. And the right dies. A battle is won, but the war is lost. Of course in the case of paleos and the Old Right (Beautiful Losers), no battle is won, haha and the war is lost for nothing.

So, by that I mean: I question whether defending Paul and these other least of evils candidates is even worth the costs and lost time/resources.

Jerry,

is Satan white?

Probably not, although if he was there would be some here who would prefer his company over a dark skin Jesus

Jerry,

Jesus is then Black?

I thought him of the tribe of Judah.

Justin loves to make fun of the Cato Institute and Reason for being full of “sodomites” and being politically correct, but at the end of the day, he makes Tom Palmer and David Boaz look like a mix between John Wayne and Jared Taylor. Even Tom Palmer defended the Bell Curve. 

At the end of the day, Justin is just a San Francisco homosexual who is deeply threatened that all those white Middle American voters out in Hillaryland won’t approve of his deviant lifestyle.  He knows that if it weren’t for both Lawrence vs. Texas and Loving vs. Virginia he and his multiracial boyfriends would all be in jail.

“Jesus is then Black?”

don’t put words in my mouth

Pat,

that’s below the belt. There’s no need for personal attacks, eh?

Mr. Raimondo runs the most effective antiwar site in America. His hard work there, which I suspect takes up most of his time, is probably appreciated by all who write for and read this site.

Jerry, when people ask a question, it’s kind of bad rhetoric to say “don’t put words in my mouth” rather than just answering it.  Your tactics would be at home in a college sorority discussion of some weighty topic like whether to have a date night with the ATOs.

Justin, you shouldn’t blame the “white nationalists” for Ron Paul’s trouble.  I’m sure you’d be happy is Hispanic reconquistas or black power fanatics were supporting Paul.  Lew Rockwell was http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/arias1.html

If Ron Paul should have been embarassed by any of his supporters, it would be the huge number of demented “9-11 Truthsters” who I’m sure are a large percentage of your site’s readership.

What really got Ron Paul in trouble with the PC Police was not a few Stormfront readers supporting his campaign, it was the fact that he or his lackeys had written tons of “racist” stuff in his newsletter.  That you and Paul all want to run away and become anti-racist sissies, be my guest.  But don’t blame “white naitonalists"--which neither Epstien, Roach, Spencer, or Gottfried are--for your problems.

Mr Roach, I never even hinted at Jesus being black and then I was asked “so your saying Jesus was black?”

That is putting words in people’s mouths.  And no, I have not a damn clue what Jesus would have looked like since I don’t think anyone even knows what ancient Judean’s 2000 years ago would have looked.

Justin will always attack his homosexual antagonists at Reason, THe NEw Republic, and Cato in the most shrill personal attacks that always relate to them be PC Left wing Sodomites.  I’d let the pot call the kettle black when it comes to his personal life, but at this point he’s outdoing them with his fanatic anti-racism; so I don’t see any reason not to call him on his hypocricy.

Jerry,

I’ve gravitated to the kinist forum as of late, and kinists are not Christian Identity. I’m a Presbyterian, and a fan of Dabney and Rushdoony, at least what I’ve read by them thusfar.

Jesus was a Jew, and with the exception of Christian Identity the vast majority of Christians believe he was not Nordic looking. Mormons might also believe he was white, though of course they’re not Christian.

However I wouldn’t describe Jews as being “dark skinned”, though the idea that Jews are black is popular among black Americans - which is why I asked.

Anyway it seems to me we’re called to take care of our own, but the stereotypes of whites who care for their own as somehow wishing harm on others is simply not often true.

It’s an artificial stereotype created by Hollywood, and most nonwhites are apt to care more for their kin, even very extended kin…

We were created as members of tribes, the Tower of Babel was destroyed and we were returned to tribes, and I believe we are meant to remain somewhat as tribal. It seems natural, it seems Biblical, it seems right. Hatred is unChristian, but caring for one’s own is not hatred.

jerry:
“The Ancient Greek race is totally different:  What we call modern day Greeks are ancestors of Slavic invaders.  The Ancient Greeks looked much more like today’s people in the Middle East”

I teach a lot of Greek students.  Some of them look a lot like Bulgarians and Romanians.  Some of them look a lot like the figures on ancient Greek vases.  In particular, some have the prominent nose bridge that I haven’t seen in other population groups.  I doubt that the ancient Greek population was ever entirely replaced.

Well this finally shows me what I hoped was not true but now it seems it is......

You see, among Neoconservative circles, their litmus test is the war:  you can believe everything opposite of National Review, but so long as you support the Iraq war, the folks at NR will embrace you with open arms.

And Now I see that many viewers here at this site also have a litmus test:  The superiority of race.  Never mind that Justin never fully denied Race IQ, he only argues that it might not be valid, but now that he argued that unforgivable sin, everyone is now coming down on him.

I bet Justin could embrace big government socialism, even embrace the Iraq war, embrace every damn sin under the sun, but so long as he agreed that the IQ difference is 100% true, facts be damned, then suddenly everyone here would overlook everything else and heap praises on him.

I just wish Colin Powell had run for President in ‘96, or 2000, *sigh*.  I’d be happy to see a black US President, really, but it’s a shame that it’s likely to be an inveterate anti-white racist.

@Frank

“tribalism” has been the prominent belief system in the middle east for thousands of years.  I will pass on tribalism, thank you very much, I would rather not have the USA become a country of constant internal strife and warfare and armed despots.

@Simon Newman

Greeks in the past and even today look vastly different depending on where they are.  A cousin of ne of my friends comes from southern Greece, his skin is so dark and his features are so different that every person who sees him assumes that he is African-American.

Jerry,

good borders make good neighbors.

My views of race and man as a social being should not be confused with the views of the writers at this site… What you say is simply not true.

---

I dunno if you’re aware of it, but the purpose of making wild accusations is often to put one’s target on the defensive - to force him to reject the accusation and thus pressure him into taking a more moderated position in an attempt at proving innocence from the wild claim. E.g.: Manipulator: “you’re a racist.” Target: “No I’m not. I’ll prove it: I want mass immigration of foreign aliens into my community.”

So, by your accusing takimag of valuing “the superiority of race”, the writers here would then be expected to deny and moderate.

(And by my pointing this out, my goal is to undermine this favorite tactic of yours, whether it’s consciously used or no.)

I never said Takimag claimed the superiority of any race, and most writers here dont seem to believe it either, but there have been plenty of commenters who have

Sorry Jerry, you have it backwards.

Marcus Epstein, has pretty impeccable anti-war credentials; but Justin tells him he has to choose between the national question and the war question.

Roach only mentioned IQ in passing, and I don’t think Epstein had ever mentioned it in this site before Justin started attacking everyone who might think something politically correct about race without knowing a damn thing about what he’s talking about.

Now just because the people he attacked defend themselves, they have a “racial superiority” litmus test??

Frank:
“We were created as members of tribes, the Tower of Babel was destroyed and we were returned to tribes, and I believe we are meant to remain somewhat as tribal.”

The problem with this line of thinking is that you are a Presbyterian (not that it would matter if you were a Lutheran or an Anabaptist).  The reality is quite different: “We were created as members of the human family.  Through sin and striving after equality with God, Babel was destroyed, and we entered strictly into tribes.  Then Jesus Christ came, established His Church, and overcame the curse of Babel.  Martin Luther and his ilk clove that societal fabric in two (as much as was in their power).

Nota Bene:  I am in favor of regionalism.  I am in favor of traditional cultures and their importance.  My great-great grandfather fought for the South during the War.  All of my above posts are not to say that I don’t favor regionalism or the sovereignty of nations.  Of course I do. What I take issue with his half-witted claims of racial superiority and broad assumptions based off of bad theology. For what its worth.

I would not question whether Marcus is anti-war or not, but I think it is reasonable to infer from Mr. Epstein’s writing that the “National Question” is more important to him then War and Empire.

Jerry,

What you need to get through your head is that recognizing there are group averages does not mean that you treat individuals differently, it does not mean that you believe that any individual is representative of his group, and it does not mean that you think that one group is superior to another.

I certainly don’t think Koreans are superior to Italians (my group) because they have higher IQs.  I don’t think Germans or Jews are superior because they have higher IQs.  They have superior IQs, but they are not superior beings, in the same way that Kenyans have superior sprinting skills relative to, well, everyone else in the world probably, but Kenyans are not superior beings.  Why is this so hard to grasp? 

I think the people who trot this argument out are projecting.  To them, intelligence IS everything, so when you say “Members of group A have, on average, a higher IQ than members of group B,” they immediately think “Group A is superior… oh my god this person is a NAZI!” These people are often high-IQ types themselves who take a great deal of pride in their own intelligence.  But of course someone’s moral worth as a human being has nothing to do with his IQ score.

Marc, I could agree with most of what you said, indeed IQ is not a good way of showing someones worth, but look around here and in some of the more recent article’s comments regarding this discussion that has been going on, and you will see that there are those who are indeed smug about their “race”, whether they admit it or not

Jerry,

Yes, there are people who respond to statistics on race and IQ by believing that they or their group are superior.  But that doesn’t change the research.  The point I’m trying to make is that it is more effective and more reasonable to argue against idiotic reactions to the research than it is to argue against the research itself, given that the research is pretty well-substantiated. 

Let me use an example.  It’s pretty clear that men are, on average, stronger than women.  If some men used this difference to justify denying women their rights, beating them, keeping them from getting an education or driving, etc… would you respond by saying: “No, men aren’t really stronger than women,” or “Your assumptions are flawed: gender doesn’t really exist!  Men and women are more alike than different genetically!  Some women are stronger than most men!” and so forth.  Or would you say, “Yes, men are in general stronger, now stop hitting your wife you SOB.” I think you would chose the latter.

That men are stronger than women is clearly due to biology.  That whites score higher than blacks on IQ tests is not clearly due to biology.  Nevertheless, it is clear that there ARE differences in average IQ scores among different racial groups, and the research does tend toward an at least partial (and perhaps majority) biological explanation.  So it might be wise to focus less on debunking well-established research (which only feeds into these people’s superiority complex, because here you are showing how they, and only they, know the truth) and more on calling people to task for reacting to that research like jerks.

Melchior Cano,

which half-witted claims are you referring to?

I never said my people were superior to any… However, if you look at Aristotle, he says Greeks are best, and I do like the West the best. I don’t need an IQ test, a crime statistic, a list of Western achievements, etc. to argue its superiority. No, I simply wish to live among my people. And globalists don’t want this.

You say you’re in favor of regionalism, but that can mean many different things.

That is to say: there’s nothing inherently wrong with having pride in one’s people. And the question is not: “who is superior?” but “may separate tribes exist?”

And the answer most seem to dream of is: “no, they may not ever again!”

Frank,

Its late so this is my last comment.  Yes, absolutely, separate tribes can exist.  The problem arrives when the separation of the tribes ceases to be organic, and instead becomes a self-conscious act on the part of the “tribe” or certain members of it.  The danger arrives when this tribe mentality extends into nationalism, which is not Christian. 

As far as regionalism, I favor the regionalism defended by the Southern Agrarians.

In Christ Our King

Melchior Cano,

it’s a shame you must sleep for I’d be very interested in an explanation of:

“The danger arrives when this tribe mentality extends into nationalism, which is not Christian.”

---

Is this yet another case of a reaction to WWII, or is there a first principle hidden underneath? I hear such statements made often, but I’m rarely given a glimpse at their foundation.

Dylan, the point is that Justin said Marcus had to CHOOSE whether the National Question or War Question was more important.

So what if he thinks the National Question is more important.

I think that shows that Justin is being more “intolerant.” than any of the “racialists.”

He’s saying that you must put War question above any and all considerations or he’s going to have a hissy fit.